Searching for GOD...

[Leonard James]

Sass you are obviously talking about yourself where ignorance and lack of knowledge is concerned!

I am reminded of GBS's famous words :- "You know nothing and think you know everything, and that clearly points to a political career."

With Sass it's an evangelical career.

[Nearly Sane]

AB,

The article seems to be based on the results of a question in a recent census, but the Prague meeting shows that there is still a substanial Christian presence there.

Depends what you mean by "substantial", but if you mean "significant" as I assume you do because you brought it up in relation to the religiosity of the Czech Republic then no it doesn't. As a percentage of the population (c10.5m), the 23,000 you refer to is about 2.23%. Even then there's no evidence that those who hosted christians were themselves necessarily christians too. You'd be better off sticking with the facts which show a higher level of religiosity than your anecdote suggests, albeit that it doesn't change the lager picture of the CR being substantially secular.

0.23% approx

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

0.23% approx

Quite right - I mis-typed it. Thanks.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

The article seems to be based on the results of a question in a recent census, but the Prague meeting shows that there is still a substantial Christian presence there.

Depends what you mean by "substantial", but if you mean "significant" as I assume you do because you brought it up in relation to the religiosity of the Czech Republic then no it doesn't. As a percentage of the population (c10.5m), the 23,000 you refer to is about 2.23%. Even then there's no evidence that those who hosted christians were themselves necessarily christians too. You'd be better off sticking with the facts which show a higher level of religiosity than your anecdote suggests, albeit that it doesn't change the lager picture of the CR being substantially secular.

However, the Czech Republic and all the other countries you quoted have a Christian heritage.  I think you will have to admit that countries which have a Christian heritage have fared better than those which have not fully embraced Christianity.  Time will tell if those countries which dispense with their Christian foundation will maintain their quality of life.

[Shaker]

I think you will have to admit that countries which have a Christian heritage have fared better than those which have not fully embraced Christianity.

Japan?

Time will tell if those countries which dispense with their Christian foundation will maintain their quality of life.

Why wouldn't they?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

  I continue to pray for your return to faith, Len.

And I continue to hope that the veil will fall from your eyes and bring the light of truth to you! 

shouldn't that be the Light of Speculative Philosophy Len?

[ippy]

AB,

The article seems to be based on the results of a question in a recent census, but the Prague meeting shows that there is still a substantial Christian presence there.

Depends what you mean by "substantial", but if you mean "significant" as I assume you do because you brought it up in relation to the religiosity of the Czech Republic then no it doesn't. As a percentage of the population (c10.5m), the 23,000 you refer to is about 2.23%. Even then there's no evidence that those who hosted christians were themselves necessarily christians too. You'd be better off sticking with the facts which show a higher level of religiosity than your anecdote ksuggests, albeit that it doesn't change the lager picture of the CR being substantially secular.

However, the Czech Republic and all the other countries you quoted have a Christian heritage.  I think you will have to admit that countries which have a Christian heritage have fared better than those which have not fully embraced Christianity.  Time will tell if those countries which dispense with their Christian foundation will maintain their quality of life.

I can see that in the future they would see you as a suitable case for study Alan.

You certainly have turned clutching at straws into a fine art.

ippy

[jeremyp]

However, the Czech Republic and all the other countries you quoted have a Christian heritage.

And also a pagan heritage.

I think you will have to admit that countries which have a Christian heritage have fared better than those which have not fully embraced Christianity.

No country today that I can think of fully embraces Christianity. Those countries that did at one time now seem to be secular democracies.

Time will tell if those countries which dispense with their Christian foundation will maintain their quality of life.

We started dispensing with our Christian foundation hundreds of years ago. Its Christian foundation turned England, in particular, into quite a brutal place for a couple of hundred years. We’re over that now.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

However, the Czech Republic and all the other countries you quoted have a Christian heritage.

And also a pagan heritage.

I think you will have to admit that countries which have a Christian heritage have fared better than those which have not fully embraced Christianity.

No country today that I can think of fully embraces Christianity. Those countries that did at one time now seem to be secular democracies.

Time will tell if those countries which dispense with their Christian foundation will maintain their quality of life.

We started dispensing with our Christian foundation hundreds of years ago. Its Christian foundation turned England, in particular, into quite a brutal place for a couple of hundred years. We’re over that now.

There is all sorts of brutishness Jeremy. The high point of British civilisation in terms of respect was between 1939-1974.

Now there is much anger, blame and scapegoating and enemy within with perhaps the most horrendous rise in disrespect found among secularist humanists and atheists.

[Maeght]

Then we would be all robots and believe the same thing... Do you purposely ignore that fact so your rose tinted spectles don't have to come off or steam up?

Its not a fact Sassy. We are all the product of our nature and nurture, and no two people will have had the exact same nature and nurture, hence we are all slightly different in the way we act and in what we think - although of course we can be classified into general personality types, beliefs and such.

[jeremyp]

Now there is much anger, blame and scapegoating and enemy within with perhaps the most horrendous rise in disrespect found among secularist humanists and atheists.

But very little execution of people for being the wrong kind of Christian.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Now there is much anger, blame and scapegoating and enemy within with perhaps the most horrendous rise in disrespect found among secularist humanists and atheists.

But very little execution of people for being the wrong kind of Christian.

So, as long as you stop short of that...........anything is permissible?

[Leonard James]

We are all the product of our nature and nurture, and no two people will have had the exact same nature and nurture, hence we are all slightly different in the way we act and in what we think - although of course we can be classified into general personality types, beliefs and such.

And some more credulous than others.

[Leonard James]

shouldn't that be the Light of Speculative Philosophy Len?

No mate, I was referring to the light of the truth that there is no evidence for any "creative god", much less knowledge about what it is or wants.

[Outrider]

I think you will have to admit that countries which have a Christian heritage have fared better than those which have not fully embraced Christianity.

No country today that I can think of fully embraces Christianity. Those countries that did at one time now seem to be secular democracies.

Tellingly, those countries which are typically seen to have adopted Christianity are also those which developed in the resource-rich, temperate region of Southern- and Western-Europe, and therefore were at the forefront of the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution - their success came not because of their Christianity, but because of their geography, and not with their Christianity's emergence, but after it and continued into their Christianity's decline.

Time will tell if those countries which dispense with their Christian foundation will maintain their quality of life.

We started dispensing with our Christian foundation hundreds of years ago. Its Christian foundation turned England, in particular, into quite a brutal place for a couple of hundred years. We’re over that now.

The evidence so far is pretty good.

O.

[Outrider]

There is all sorts of brutishness Jeremy. The high point of British civilisation in terms of respect was between 1939-1974.

Unless you were Black, Irish, gay, female, disabled, Jewish....

Now there is much anger, blame and scapegoating and enemy within with perhaps the most horrendous rise in disrespect found among secularist humanists and atheists.

Perhaps... or perhaps not. Anything's possible - if you were to supply some sort of data as evidence we might not have to guess along with you.

O.

[Alan Burns]

Tellingly, those countries which are typically seen to have adopted Christianity are also those which developed in the resource-rich, temperate region of Southern- and Western-Europe, and therefore were at the forefront of the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution - their success came not because of their Christianity, but because of their geography, and not with their Christianity's emergence, but after it and continued into their Christianity's decline.
.

It strikes me after reading recent posts that we all cherry pick "reasons" for things being the way they are in order to suit what we want to believe (myself included).  And there is no truly objective way to determine whose reasoning is correct, so we all carry on defending our own corner without making any real progress towards the truth.

So how do we discover the truth? 
Are we guilty of presuming what is true, then picking evidence to defend it?
Has anyone the courage to allow the truth to come to them, by inviting it in?

[Shaker]

How do you invite the truth in, Alan?

It's something that has to be found, it's not the fucking gas man.

[Outrider]

It strikes me after reading recent posts that we all cherry pick "reasons" for things being the way they are in order to suit what we want to believe (myself included).

I think we're probably all partly right The history of Christian societies is that they have loosened their ties on their 'subjects' faster than other religions appear to have done, for instance. That's probably in part due to the development of technologies and scientific findings which brought into question classical views of reality as well as a degree of personal freedom that comes from the multiplicitous nature of Christian sects. The reality is that it's unlikely to be entirely one or the other, and opinion swings on the degree to which one trait or the other dominates.

And there is no truly objective way to determine whose reasoning is correct, so we all carry on defending our own corner without making any real progress towards the truth.

So how do we discover the truth? 

We review all the possible societies and see which themes are common, which are specific, where the common elements are and we work towards agreement on probabilities.

Are we guilty of presuming what is true, then picking evidence to defend it?
Has anyone the courage to allow the truth to come to them, by inviting it in?

Everyone likes to think they have that courage, everyone probably succeeds sometimes and fails at others - ultimately, we're human, but I like to think that collectively we're getting closer to truth as time progresses... (over which time, the data suggests, a higher and higher proportion of people aren't believing in gods, but I can't say whether that's a cause or an effect ).

O.

[Rhiannon]

I invited truth in - through the sacraments, Bible reading, service and prayer - and eventually I had to gather the courage to face the fact that the truth (absolute truth, as opposed to 'true for me') is not to be found in any of those things. It wasn't easy, but I did it.

[Leonard James]

So how do we discover the truth? 

Keep searching for it. Never claiming that we have it.

[Nearly Sane]

How do you invite the truth in, Alan?

It's something that has to be found, it's not the fucking gas man.

Let's assume that we could 'invite' it in - wouldn't matter as we still have no way of recognising it. It might say it's the one true Gas Man but it might only be the Iceman or worse the Walrus who cometh.  If we were to portray true as an even number, our subjectivity is an odd one so that if you add the two togther you always end up with odd/subjective.  (Note I have in the back of my mind that Andy has used an analogy very similar so I'll note any credit to him).

[Rhiannon]

Life would be so dull if we had 'the truth'. The interest is in the searching.

[Andy]

How do you invite the truth in, Alan?

It's something that has to be found, it's not the fucking gas man.

Let's assume that we could 'invite' it in - wouldn't matter as we still have no way of recognising it. It might say it's the one true Gas Man but it might only be the Iceman or worse the Walrus who cometh.  If we were to portray true as an even number, our subjectivity is an odd one so that if you add the two together you always end up with odd/subjective.  (Note I have in the back of my mind that Andy has used an analogy very similar so I'll note any credit to him).

I can only remember using odd and even as an example of holding beliefs in abeyance if we don't have the information to believe either, even when we know it has to be odd or even. Can't say I've used it how you have here, so you can have it (not that I wouldn't let you anyway).

[ippy]

Tellingly, those countries which are typically seen to have adopted Christianity are also those which developed in the resource-rich, temperate region of Southern- and Western-Europe, and therefore were at the forefront of the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution - their success came not because of their Christianity, but because of their geography, and not with their Christianity's emergence, but after it and continued into their Christianity's decline.
.

It strikes me after reading recent posts that we all cherry pick "reasons" for things being the way they are in order to suit what we want to believe (myself included).  And there is no truly objective way to determine whose reasoning is correct, so we all carry on defending our own corner without making any real progress towards the truth.

So how do we discover the truth? 
Are we guilty of presuming what is true, then picking evidence to defend it?
Has anyone the courage to allow the truth to come to them, by inviting it in?

It's a pity we can't get back to 'Mystic Meg', from those T V appearances she used to make a few years back.

Although Mystic Meg dates from some years back it still applies that her horoscopes were supposed to be believable forecasts of our futures, strangely enough they exactly parallel your belief in and the supposed accuracy of your manual the bible; if you think this isn't the case well that's fine but how do you or anyone else go about convincing others your belief is any more credible than believing in horology?

Other than indoctrinating your very young vulnerable children to believe in your manual, as you people usually do to them before they have acquired the ability to challenge? It's more than likely that's the reason that you are so lost and taken in with it.

ippy