Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3894929 times)

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64342
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3950 on: September 22, 2015, 12:52:28 PM »
Also I feel a bit Pontius all of a sudden and would ask 'What is truth?'. I can vaguely get the idea of true, but truth seems in its largest sense a tad ineffable.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32506
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3951 on: September 22, 2015, 03:01:02 PM »

Now there is much anger, blame and scapegoating and enemy within with perhaps the most horrendous rise in disrespect found among secularist humanists and atheists.

But very little execution of people for being the wrong kind of Christian.
So, as long as you stop short of that...........anything is permissible?
The point is that they were not stopping short of executing each other before this country became secular.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ekim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5812
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3952 on: September 22, 2015, 03:53:21 PM »

Tellingly, those countries which are typically seen to have adopted Christianity are also those which developed in the resource-rich, temperate region of Southern- and Western-Europe, and therefore were at the forefront of the Renaissance and the Industrial Revolution - their success came not because of their Christianity, but because of their geography, and not with their Christianity's emergence, but after it and continued into their Christianity's decline.
.
It strikes me after reading recent posts that we all cherry pick "reasons" for things being the way they are in order to suit what we want to believe (myself included).  And there is no truly objective way to determine whose reasoning is correct, so we all carry on defending our own corner without making any real progress towards the truth.

So how do we discover the truth? 
Are we guilty of presuming what is true, then picking evidence to defend it?
Has anyone the courage to allow the truth to come to them, by inviting it in?

Well at least you admit to believing what you want to believe, but doesn't include inviting the 'truth' in, whatever that means exactly?
At a guess, I suspect that he means inviting Jesus (the truth) in, based upon the words of Jesus alleged by the 4th Gospel writer 'I am the way, the truth and the life' and to tie it in to the title of this thread about knowing God 'no one comes to the Father but through me'.

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3953 on: September 22, 2015, 04:02:37 PM »

It strikes me after reading recent posts that we all cherry pick "reasons" for things being the way they are in order to suit what we want to believe (myself included).  And there is no truly objective way to determine whose reasoning is correct, so we all carry on defending our own corner without making any real progress towards the truth.

So how do we discover the truth? 
Are we guilty of presuming what is true, then picking evidence to defend it?
Has anyone the courage to allow the truth to come to them, by inviting it in?

You were doing so well Alan until the last line, which is just a veiled'let Jesus into your heart' message - then it all went wrong!

bluehillside Retd.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19471
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3954 on: September 22, 2015, 04:54:40 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Now there is much anger, blame and scapegoating and enemy within with perhaps the most horrendous rise in disrespect found among secularist humanists and atheists.

As ever, you have it backwards. The "disrespect" you identify is only disrespect for the unwarranted entitlement you think should be accorded to your personal beliefs. No-one though disrespects your right to hold those beliefs, and nor your right to express them if you wish to. The point about secular societies is that they do respect the rights of the religious - of any kind - whereas theocracies tend to eliminate all religious beliefs but their own. 

Apart from that though... 
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 05:24:54 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3955 on: September 22, 2015, 04:58:06 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Now there is much anger, blame and scapegoating and enemy within with perhaps the most horrendous rise in disrespect found among secularist humanists and atheists.

As ever, you have it backwards. The "disrespect" you identify is only disrespect for the unwarranted entitlement you think your personal beliefs should be accorded. No-one though disrespects your right to hold those beliefs, and nor your right to express them if you wish to. The point about secular societies is that they do respect the rights of the religious - of any kind - whereas theocracies tend to eliminate all religious beliefs but their own. 

Apart from that though...

Indeed. Because Christian respect for paganism is...um...

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3956 on: September 22, 2015, 05:04:37 PM »

It strikes me after reading recent posts that we all cherry pick "reasons" for things being the way they are in order to suit what we want to believe (myself included).  And there is no truly objective way to determine whose reasoning is correct, so we all carry on defending our own corner without making any real progress towards the truth.

So how do we discover the truth? 

That is why we developed scientific method; it is essentially a means to mitigate against our inbuilt biases. Truth is not something that can be invited in as if it were a next door neighbour. What we can do is make a provisional stab (hypothesis) at what we think might be true, and then test it to death.  Your next door neighbour wouldn't like it of course.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10211
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3957 on: September 23, 2015, 02:48:12 PM »

It strikes me after reading recent posts that we all cherry pick "reasons" for things being the way they are in order to suit what we want to believe (myself included).  And there is no truly objective way to determine whose reasoning is correct, so we all carry on defending our own corner without making any real progress towards the truth.

So how do we discover the truth? 

That is why we developed scientific method; it is essentially a means to mitigate against our inbuilt biases. Truth is not something that can be invited in as if it were a next door neighbour. What we can do is make a provisional stab (hypothesis) at what we think might be true, and then test it to death.  Your next door neighbour wouldn't like it of course.
But current science tells me that every choice I make is not driven by my real time awareness, but by sub conscious pre determined brain activity.  So it would appear that I have to sacrifice my free thought and free will to science and conclude that my perception of reality is all an illusion.

I think we must recognise the limitations of science and conclude that there is much more to reality than what has currently been discovered by science.  There may well be much more for science to discover in the future, and there may be much that science will never discover.  But we should not allow science alone to dictate what is real and what is not.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Leonard James

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12443
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3958 on: September 23, 2015, 02:54:29 PM »

But current science tells me that every choice I make is not driven by my real time awareness, but by sub conscious pre determined brain activity.  So it would appear that I have to sacrifice my free thought and free will to science and conclude that my perception of reality is all an illusion.

I think we must recognise the limitations of science and conclude that there is much more to reality than what has currently been discovered by science.  There may well be much more for science to discover in the future, and there may be much that science will never discover.  But we should not allow science alone to dictate what is real and what is not.

By the same token we must definitely not let our imagination decide what is real and what is not.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14564
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3959 on: September 23, 2015, 02:58:45 PM »
But current science tells me that every choice I make is not driven by my real time awareness, but by sub conscious pre-determined brain activity.  So it would appear that I have to sacrifice my free thought and free will to science and conclude that my perception of reality is all an illusion.

You can't sacrifice a free will that you don't have.

Quote
I think we must recognise the limitations of science and conclude that there is much more to reality than what has currently been discovered by science.

Yes we need to recognise the limitations, and yes we need to accept that we can't (yet?) explain everything. We do that not, though, because we don't like conclusions like 'free will is an illusion', but because there is ample evidence that science has limitations that we've yet to fully explore.

Quote
There may well be much more for science to discover in the future, and there may be much that science will never discover.  But we should not allow science alone to dictate what is real and what is not.

Fine - and I'm sure I've heard this before - but until and unless someone comes up with an equally valid methodology we'll have to stick to the ones we have: logical deduction, mathematical modelling and the scientific method.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10211
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3960 on: September 23, 2015, 03:16:42 PM »

But current science tells me that every choice I make is not driven by my real time awareness, but by sub conscious pre determined brain activity.  So it would appear that I have to sacrifice my free thought and free will to science and conclude that my perception of reality is all an illusion.

I think we must recognise the limitations of science and conclude that there is much more to reality than what has currently been discovered by science.  There may well be much more for science to discover in the future, and there may be much that science will never discover.  But we should not allow science alone to dictate what is real and what is not.

By the same token we must definitely not let our imagination decide what is real and what is not.
But it is certainly not my imagination which reveals the reality of my Christian beliefs.

You may argue that it is the imagination of other human beings which have led me away from the truth.  But my concept of reality stems from the revelations of God through the life of Christ and the lives of those who witness to their Christian faith.  Science gives a little insight into how God makes it all happen, but it does not dictate my entire concept of reality.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 03:19:32 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3961 on: September 23, 2015, 03:31:25 PM »

But it is certainly not my imagination which reveals the reality of my Christian beliefs.


I think it probably is the way your brain processes information it receives.

You may not like what science is telling us about the sub-conscious controlling our actions but that doesn't mean it isn't the case. It is early days regarding that area of scientific research though but the indications are that that is how things work. You might just need to learn how to deal with that.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14564
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3962 on: September 23, 2015, 03:36:37 PM »
But it is certainly not my imagination which reveals the reality of my Christian beliefs.

At the same time, belief is not a reliable indicator of reality - that you believe in the Christian tale doesn't make the Christian tale any more or less likely.

Quote
You may argue that it is the imagination of other human beings which have led me away from the truth.  But my concept of reality stems from the revelations of God through the life of Christ and the lives of those who witness to their Christian faith.  Science gives a little insight into how God makes it all happen, but it does not dictate my entire concept of reality.

And Muslims' concepts of reality stem from the revelations of Allah through the words of Gabriel and Mohammed, revelations which will mean little to you and vice versa.

Measurable phenomena, though, are independent of the beliefs of individuals.

Science doesn't need to 'give insight into how God makes it all happen' until and unless someone gives good reason to think a god does. That hasn't happened yet, and the fact that you've accepted the assertion uncritically is the weak link in your chain.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5680
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3963 on: September 23, 2015, 04:08:12 PM »

You make a choice about something at anyone moment. If you could re-enact that moment exactly - go back in time to the exact same moment with the exact same prior experiences, knowledge etc would you make exactly the same decision as before?
The answer has to be a big No.

Because my choices are driven by thought processes which occur real time and are not pre determined.

Then what controls your thought processes - what determines your decision? And by that I don't mean what do you call it (soul, consciousness) I mean what is the process by which any decisions are made which are not pre determined by previous experiences and 'programming'?
What would be different in the replayed scenario which lead to a different decision?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 06:12:47 PM by Maeght »

ippy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12679
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3964 on: September 23, 2015, 04:48:02 PM »

But current science tells me that every choice I make is not driven by my real time awareness, but by sub conscious pre determined brain activity.  So it would appear that I have to sacrifice my free thought and free will to science and conclude that my perception of reality is all an illusion.

I think we must recognise the limitations of science and conclude that there is much more to reality than what has currently been discovered by science.  There may well be much more for science to discover in the future, and there may be much that science will never discover.  But we should not allow science alone to dictate what is real and what is not.

By the same token we must definitely not let our imagination decide what is real and what is not.
But it is certainly not my imagination which reveals the reality of my Christian beliefs.

You may argue that it is the imagination of other human beings which have led me away from the truth.  But my concept of reality stems from the revelations of God through the life of Christ and the lives of those who witness to their Christian faith.  Science gives a little insight into how God makes it all happen, but it does not dictate my entire concept of reality.

Exactly how does this thing you refer to as god contact you with all of the info you keep telling us he, she or it does?

Post, email, facebook?

You've really got it bad Alan.

ippy

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3965 on: September 23, 2015, 10:42:38 PM »

That is why we developed scientific method; it is essentially a means to mitigate against our inbuilt biases. Truth is not something that can be invited in as if it were a next door neighbour. What we can do is make a provisional stab (hypothesis) at what we think might be true, and then test it to death.  Your next door neighbour wouldn't like it of course.
But current science tells me that every choice I make is not driven by my real time awareness, but by sub conscious pre determined brain activity.  So it would appear that I have to sacrifice my free thought and free will to science and conclude that my perception of reality is all an illusion.


Well, yes, maybe.  We don't sacrifice anything to science, of course, but we can try to understand and accept what we have learned from research. Our perception of reality is just that - it is a perception, it is not objective; for each of us our experience is a private fabrication, unique to ourselves only, ultimately unshareable.

I think we must recognise the limitations of science and conclude that there is much more to reality than what has currently been discovered by science.  There may well be much more for science to discover in the future, and there may be much that science will never discover.  But we should not allow science alone to dictate what is real and what is not.

Science is never a dictator, it advises us.  So do we listen to advice or do we ignore it ? We don't have to take prescription medicines, but who is the wiser, the man who takes pharmaceuticals that have been through years of multi level testing, or the man goes to a faith healer ? I see little wisdom in ignoring what we have learned to date, even if that knowledge fails to flatter us or comfort us. Science will never reveal all answers, and in that morsel of humility lies its strength; it is only by accepting that we are mostly wrong, that we can be open to learn. Teachings that claim certainties, on the other hand, are ones that close minds and obstruct real growth and learning.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 10:44:30 PM by torridon »

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10211
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3966 on: September 23, 2015, 10:49:13 PM »

And Muslims' concepts of reality stem from the revelations of Allah through the words of Gabriel and Mohammed, revelations which will mean little to you and vice versa.


The life story of Mohammed is certainly not as inspiring as that of Jesus, which is why there are not many films depicting his life. 
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3967 on: September 23, 2015, 10:52:26 PM »

And Muslims' concepts of reality stem from the revelations of Allah through the words of Gabriel and Mohammed, revelations which will mean little to you and vice versa.


The life story of Mohammed is certainly not as inspiring as that of Jesus, which is why there are not many films depicting his life.
Don't you think the prohibition on visual representations of the prophet might have something to do with it?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10211
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3968 on: September 23, 2015, 11:03:16 PM »

Exactly how does this thing you refer to as god contact you with all of the info you keep telling us he, she or it does?

Post, email, facebook?

You've really got it bad Alan.

ippy
My contact with God is through prayer, as the other 2.3 billion Christians will testify.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10211
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3969 on: September 23, 2015, 11:06:09 PM »

And Muslims' concepts of reality stem from the revelations of Allah through the words of Gabriel and Mohammed, revelations which will mean little to you and vice versa.


The life story of Mohammed is certainly not as inspiring as that of Jesus, which is why there are not many films depicting his life.
Don't you think the prohibition on visual representations of the prophet might have something to do with it?
When you investigate the details of his life story, it is understandable why the prohibition has been imposed.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3970 on: September 23, 2015, 11:10:35 PM »
Why? What makes it understandable that visual representations are prohibited?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15639
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3971 on: September 23, 2015, 11:16:58 PM »
But it is certainly not my imagination which reveals the reality of my Christian beliefs.
Despite tossing in the 'c' word to give your bald assertion an authority it absolutely does not possess, in actual fact you have no such certainty.

Quote
But my concept of reality stems from the revelations of God through the life of Christ and the lives of those who witness to their Christian faith.
Question begging again, Alan.

Quote
Science gives a little insight into how God makes it all happen, but it does not dictate my entire concept of reality.
Science doesn't do and has nothing to do with any gods, unless  you're prepared to overlook the rather large indoor pachyderm, namely, that science offers absolutely no support for gods or the supernatural in any way whatever.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64342
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3972 on: September 24, 2015, 07:34:45 AM »
Given that science is methodologically naturalistic, it would not ever give any indications of the supernatural.

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10209
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3973 on: September 24, 2015, 07:57:59 AM »

My contact with God is through prayer, as the other 2.3 billion Christians will testify.


 .. as also do 1.5 billion muslims. 

I don't think the numbers particularly reflect the validity of the respective beliefs, they more reflect the sizes of current cultural population demographics.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14564
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #3974 on: September 24, 2015, 08:45:47 AM »

And Muslims' concepts of reality stem from the revelations of Allah through the words of Gabriel and Mohammed, revelations which will mean little to you and vice versa.


The life story of Mohammed is certainly not as inspiring as that of Jesus, which is why there are not many films depicting his life.

How inspiring it is, surely, is a personal (perhaps aesthetic?) judgment? For me, personally, the Jesus myth is exactly as inspiring as the Mohammed myth, but for hundreds of millions of Muslims the Qu'Ran is a tale apart from all others.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints