Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3895267 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4000 on: September 25, 2015, 05:30:08 PM »
I would like to point out that petition prayers (where we ask for something to happen) are just a small part of my prayer time.  The majority of my prayers are concerned with allowing God into my life by being aware of Him, discerning His will, discovering what I have done wrong, being sorry, and thanking God for all He has done.  I do not think there will be a valid methodology for testing these aspects of prayer.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4001 on: September 25, 2015, 05:38:05 PM »
I would like to point out that petition prayers (where we ask for something to happen) are just a small part of my prayer time.  The majority of my prayers are concerned with allowing God into my life by being aware of Him, discerning His will, discovering what I have done wrong, being sorry, and thanking God for all He has done.  I do not think there will be a valid methodology for testing these aspects of prayer.
What about you and your fellow pray-ers saying, 'Please don't waste your time with us, we have roofs over our heads, access to medical treatments when necessary, food and clothing. Go and do something useful.'
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

savillerow

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4002 on: September 25, 2015, 05:38:43 PM »
msg 4268 AB "thanking god for all he has done" Do you ever ever ever just throw out that little old question to your man about whats gone wrong?
i know this is hard for theists to agree with but . . . .we are flying this planet.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4003 on: September 25, 2015, 05:40:52 PM »
msg 4268 AB "thanking god for all he has done" Do you ever ever ever just throw out that little old question to your man about whats gone wrong?
I often wonder why mankind isn't as good as sentimentally painted by people like yer goodsel'

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4004 on: September 26, 2015, 08:59:46 AM »
AB,

Quote
I am aware of the discovery that specific brain activity occurs seconds before we make apparently conscious decisions, but  the scientific deduction that sub conscious brain activity alone controls our apparently free will decisions is blatently incorrect.  Participants of major sports such as F1 racing, football, boxing, tennis etc all have to make instant decisions based upon real time conscious awareness.  If brain activity needs to be induced seconds prior to implementing a conscious decision, there must me something outside the deterministic rules of science which induces it.

To your credit I've never once seen you here post the sort of bile and resentment that some of your fellow christians seem to wallow in, but that doesn't mean that your child-like reasoning holds water. Are you familiar at least with the idea of a logical fallacy - an incorrect argument which undermines the force of the attempted point?

Your posts consist almost entirely of logical fallacies of both the formal and informal type - your latest for example contains (at least) three of them (argument by assertion, non sequitur etc). I don't doubt that you are sincere in your beliefs, but do you not think that it would help you at least to understand what logical fallacies are so you can try to avoid them in future? For all I know you might have a valid point to make, but the moment I start to read your posts I have no choice but to dismiss them because your reasoning is so obviously hopeless.
In my efforts to keep my posts brief and concise I admit that I leave out much detail which could support the points I try to make.  Having said that, there are two posters on this thread who seem to understand my reasoning, make constructive comments and offer alternative logic which moves the discussion on.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4005 on: September 26, 2015, 09:22:43 AM »
Conciseness does not necessitate the use of logical fallacies.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4006 on: September 26, 2015, 11:19:00 AM »
AB,

Quote
I am aware of the discovery that specific brain activity occurs seconds before we make apparently conscious decisions, but  the scientific deduction that sub conscious brain activity alone controls our apparently free will decisions is blatently incorrect.  Participants of major sports such as F1 racing, football, boxing, tennis etc all have to make instant decisions based upon real time conscious awareness.  If brain activity needs to be induced seconds prior to implementing a conscious decision, there must me something outside the deterministic rules of science which induces it.

To your credit I've never once seen you here post the sort of bile and resentment that some of your fellow christians seem to wallow in, but that doesn't mean that your child-like reasoning holds water. Are you familiar at least with the idea of a logical fallacy - an incorrect argument which undermines the force of the attempted point?

Your posts consist almost entirely of logical fallacies of both the formal and informal type - your latest for example contains (at least) three of them (argument by assertion, non sequitur etc). I don't doubt that you are sincere in your beliefs, but do you not think that it would help you at least to understand what logical fallacies are so you can try to avoid them in future? For all I know you might have a valid point to make, but the moment I start to read your posts I have no choice but to dismiss them because your reasoning is so obviously hopeless.
In my efforts to keep my posts brief and concise I admit that I leave out much detail which could support the points I try to make.  Having said that, there are two posters on this thread who seem to understand my reasoning, make constructive comments and offer alternative logic which moves the discussion on.

As you, nor anyone else are able to establish the evidential veracity of the bible especially with reference to  the mythical, superstitious or the magical elements of this book; don't you think it might be wise to leave having any kind of discussion about it's finer points or anything else about its contents until it can be established that it's about actual factual events, until it can, what's the point?

Because of the severe lack of, or absence of evidence that would give the bible any credibility it needs to be consigned to the shelves reserved for fiction.

ippy     

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4007 on: September 26, 2015, 12:11:04 PM »

You may not like what science is telling us about the sub-conscious controlling our actions but that doesn't mean it isn't the case. It is early days regarding that area of scientific research though but the indications are that that is how things work. You might just need to learn how to deal with that.
I am aware of the discovery that specific brain activity occurs seconds before we make apparently conscious decisions, but  the scientific deduction that sub conscious brain activity alone controls our apparently free will decisions is blatently incorrect.

No, I can't agree.

Quote
Participants of major sports such as F1 racing, football, boxing, tennis etc all have to make instant decisions based upon real time conscious awareness.  If brain activity needs to be induced seconds prior to implementing a conscious decision, there must me something outside the deterministic rules of science which induces it.

I'm afraid the idea of instant decision is 'blantantly incorrect' to use your phrase. We all have reaction times - and top sports men have generally better reactions times than the man on the street - but even so top F1 drivers have crashes and can't react in time. Sports men practice and practice so that the best reaction in a particular situation is programmed in - and they can predict what might happen from the developing evidence of what has built up to the event and be more prepared for that event. Have you heard of the phrase 'instinctive save' when goal keepers pull of close range blocks?

None of wht you say suggests the existence of something outside of the deterministic world.

Could you reply to my earlier post (4128) where I asked about the mechanism of different decisions being reached if a situation was replayed?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 03:00:59 PM by Maeght »

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4008 on: September 26, 2015, 02:52:11 PM »
AB,

Quote
In my efforts to keep my posts brief and concise I admit that I leave out much detail which could support the points I try to make.  Having said that, there are two posters on this thread who seem to understand my reasoning, make constructive comments and offer alternative logic which moves the discussion on.

You’ve missed the point. If your premise is false, no amount of detail will change that.

If, say, I said that I knew that Spurs would beat Man City today because I didn’t step on any cracks n the pavement when I walked back from the newsagent this morning then I would have committed a logical mistake (the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy since you ask). No amount of additional detail – which shoes I was wearing, the colour of the paving slabs etc – would change that.
   
And that’s your problem. You consistently use false reasoning to jump to your conclusions when that reasoning fails to support those conclusions. That’s not to say that your conclusions are necessarily right or wrong, but it is to say that the thinking that gets you to them is demonstrably wrong.

I merely suggest that, if you troubled to understand what logical fallacies are, you could better avoid them in future and having have cleared the ground you’d be better placed to attempt arguments with which others could engage.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4009 on: September 26, 2015, 03:03:32 PM »
I merely suggest that, if you troubled to understand what logical fallacies are, you could better avoid them in future
I would dearly love you to be right, but have seen much too much evidence to the contrary to believe it. Some people are so wedded to their beloved fallacies that they stick to them tighter than Superglue even long after the fallacy and why it's fallacious has been pointed out to them. This says something interesting but also ultimately depressing about human psychology, or the psychology of some humans at any rate.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4010 on: September 26, 2015, 04:01:39 PM »
AB,

Quote
In my efforts to keep my posts brief and concise I admit that I leave out much detail which could support the points I try to make.  Having said that, there are two posters on this thread who seem to understand my reasoning, make constructive comments and offer alternative logic which moves the discussion on.

You’ve missed the point. If your premise is false, no amount of detail will change that.

If, say, I said that I knew that Spurs would beat Man City today because I didn’t step on any cracks n the pavement when I walked back from the newsagent this morning then I would have committed a logical mistake (the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy since you ask). No amount of additional detail – which shoes I was wearing, the colour of the paving slabs etc – would change that.
   
And that’s your problem. You consistently use false reasoning to jump to your conclusions when that reasoning fails to support those conclusions. That’s not to say that your conclusions are necessarily right or wrong, but it is to say that the thinking that gets you to them is demonstrably wrong.

I merely suggest that, if you troubled to understand what logical fallacies are, you could better avoid them in future and having have cleared the ground you’d be better placed to attempt arguments with which others could engage.
I think this forum aptly demonstrates that the task of trying to define reality in terms of watertight logical reasoning (as defined by humans) is not possible.

What I try to do is to use a combination of logic, common sense and personal experiences to make sense of our existence.  By rejecting anything which does not comply with the precise logic you demand could result in you throwing away the truth behind our existence.

The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4011 on: September 26, 2015, 04:31:09 PM »
I guess it's like comparing religion to a beautiful painting and trying to explain why you see it as beautiful.

If you love modern art you are going to struggle if the people you are trying to explain it to, see beauty only in another totally different styles.

There are lots of different art styles, some appeal and some don't 🌹
Artistic/aesthetic appreciation is built upon an entirely subjective, individual basis of personal taste, inclination and reference - one person's art is another person's useless and incomprehensible trash and so forth.

I look forward to the day when religionists regard their religious beliefs and claims as similarly subjective. We will have a long wait, because down the ages many of them - monotheists especially - have regarded their beliefs and claims to reflect objectively true states of affairs about reality (usually so that said beliefs can be forcibly imposed upon others), and they're not going to give that up any time soon.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2015, 04:32:40 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4012 on: September 26, 2015, 04:53:57 PM »

I think this forum aptly demonstrates that the task of trying to define reality in terms of watertight logical reasoning (as defined by humans) is not possible.

What I try to do is to use a combination of logic, common sense and personal experiences to make sense of our existence.  By rejecting anything which does not comply with the precise logic you demand could result in you throwing away the truth behind our existence.

I have no issue with people believing anything. Its when they try to argue that their belief is supported by scientific evidence or logic where the issue comes and such claims need to be confronted. Your 'logic' is coloured by your existing beliefs which you look to support. You claim things as being self evident which aren't and use personal incredulity as an arguement. if you just stuck to saying that you believe in a soul or whatever then fine but its when you try to argue there is supporting evidence for this that it comes unstuck.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4013 on: September 26, 2015, 05:12:47 PM »

You make a choice about something at anyone moment. If you could re-enact that moment exactly - go back in time to the exact same moment with the exact same prior experiences, knowledge etc would you make exactly the same decision as before?
The answer has to be a big No.

Because my choices are driven by thought processes which occur real time and are not pre determined.

Then what controls your thought processes - what determines your decision? And by that I don't mean what do you call it (soul, consciousness) I mean what is the process by which any decisions are made which are not pre determined by previous experiences and 'programming'?
What would be different in the replayed scenario which lead to a different decision?
I assume that my thought processes are controlled by whatever comprises my conscious awareness, and it is driven by whatever happens to be my will at the time.  The fact that conscious awareness and will are not definable in physical terms does not mean they do not exist.  The physical mechanism through which awareness and will operate is probably through quantum events which have no discernable cause because they are not driven by deterministic events.  I am fully aware that my will can change from moment to moment for no apparent reason other than it is what I want at the time.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4014 on: September 26, 2015, 05:24:17 PM »
I guess it's like comparing religion to a beautiful painting and trying to explain why you see it as beautiful.

If you love modern art you are going to struggle if the people you are trying to explain it to, see beauty only in another totally different styles.

There are lots of different art styles, some appeal and some don't 🌹

People see beauty and truth in different religions, people who look and see other things see something different.

Perhaps " religious" ideas are more like art forms.

This is probably totally wrong but maybe it uses a different part of the brain, appreciating things.
I think your post touches on thought processes which are not defined by built in instinct or previous experiences, but by the undefinable (in physical terms) awareness experienced by every human being
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4015 on: September 26, 2015, 05:38:58 PM »
I guess it's like comparing religion to a beautiful painting and trying to explain why you see it as beautiful.

If you love modern art you are going to struggle if the people you are trying to explain it to, see beauty only in another totally different styles.

There are lots of different art styles, some appeal and some don't 🌹
Artistic/aesthetic appreciation is built upon an entirely subjective, individual basis of personal taste, inclination and reference - one person's art is another person's useless and incomprehensible trash and so forth.

I look forward to the day when religionists regard their religious beliefs and claims as similarly subjective. We will have a long wait, because down the ages many of them - monotheists especially - have regarded their beliefs and claims to reflect objectively true states of affairs about reality (usually so that said beliefs can be forcibly imposed upon others), and they're not going to give that up any time soon.

Right on target.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4016 on: September 26, 2015, 06:45:50 PM »
I aim to be, Len  :D
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4017 on: September 26, 2015, 06:50:16 PM »

You make a choice about something at anyone moment. If you could re-enact that moment exactly - go back in time to the exact same moment with the exact same prior experiences, knowledge etc would you make exactly the same decision as before?
The answer has to be a big No.

Because my choices are driven by thought processes which occur real time and are not pre determined.

Then what controls your thought processes - what determines your decision? And by that I don't mean what do you call it (soul, consciousness) I mean what is the process by which any decisions are made which are not pre determined by previous experiences and 'programming'?
What would be different in the replayed scenario which lead to a different decision?
I assume that my thought processes are controlled by whatever comprises my conscious awareness, and it is driven by whatever happens to be my will at the time.

Okay.

Quote
The fact that conscious awareness and will are not definable in physical terms does not mean they do not exist.

Of course.

Quote
The physical mechanism through which awareness and will operate is probably through quantum events which have no discernable cause because they are not driven by deterministic events.

Ah right - the old quantum mechanics line to justify any belief. Not heard that for a while. What makes you say probably by the way?

Quote
I am fully aware that my will can change from moment to moment for no apparent reason other than it is what I want at the time.

Really? Does your will changes randomly? If it isn't random then what is controlling it? Why do you think there is no apparent reason rather than it being due to you just responding to a situation based on your previous experiences and your underling nature? You see that was the point f my thought experiment. it is impossible to say that your will is changing for no apparent reason unless you can re-enact the exact same situation with the exact same previous experiences and for your 'will' to be different on the different occasions. In any real time situation any previous expression of your will can effect how your will is expressed next time due to the results of the earlier expression. No two situations are identical in terms of previous experiences, information and exact details of the situation so you cannot say that your will is changing for no apparent reason.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4018 on: September 27, 2015, 10:05:07 AM »

I think this forum aptly demonstrates that the task of trying to define reality in terms of watertight logical reasoning (as defined by humans) is not possible.

What I try to do is to use a combination of logic, common sense and personal experiences to make sense of our existence.  By rejecting anything which does not comply with the precise logic you demand could result in you throwing away the truth behind our existence.

If it doesn't stand to reason, it is probably wrong. If a rationale doesn't fit the data, we might need to rip it up and start again. We all use a combination of logic, common sense and personal experience like you say, so how come we arrive as such vastly different conclusions ? We are born into this world, blinking in bafflement and wonder; our parents give us a story which seems to make enough sense for the time being, they give us a sense of purpose and a sense of our place in the greater order of things.  That background story needs to be constantly revisited as we go through life accumulating new experience and insight but your rationale seems to me straight out of Sunday School, as if you've got stuck at that stage, never moving on.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4019 on: September 27, 2015, 02:41:16 PM »
AB,

Quote
I think this forum aptly demonstrates that the task of trying to define reality in terms of watertight logical reasoning (as defined by humans) is not possible.

Your problem isn’t that your reasoning isn’t “watertight”; it’s that your reasoning is hopelessly, categorically flat wrong. Whether “defined by humans” or by anything else, it’s flat wrong nonetheless.

Take my earlier example: is the problem with my claim that not walking on the cracks in the pavement meant Spurs would win later that day that this reasoning isn’t sufficiently “watertight”, or is it that the reasoning is just plain hopeless?

Clearly it’s the latter, and the reasoning you attempt here – essentially a string of fallacies, formal and informal – is just as wrong. As I explained to you, this doesn’t mean that your conclusions (“god”, miracles etc) are necessarily wrong too, but it does mean that your attempts to reason your way to them can do no such thing.

Your only options therefore are to retreat to “true for me only” subjective truths, or if you want others to take your claims seriously finally to attempt a line of argument that isn’t evidently fallacious.

Quote
What I try to do is to use a combination of logic, common sense and personal experiences to make sense of our existence.  By rejecting anything which does not comply with the precise logic you demand could result in you throwing away the truth behind our existence.

It’s not “precise” logic, it’s finding logic of any kind that’s your problem. My cracks in the pavement theory might well seem “logical” to me, but anyone who knows anything about the way logical actually works will know me to be wrong. 

Of course there’s always a risk of “throwing away the truth behind our existence” (whatever that means), but just building claims on the back of broken reasoning provides nothing to suggest what that “truth” might be. 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4020 on: September 27, 2015, 04:05:10 PM »

Your problem isn’t that your reasoning isn’t “watertight”; it’s that your reasoning is hopelessly, categorically flat wrong. Whether “defined by humans” or by anything else, it’s flat wrong nonetheless.

Take my earlier example: is the problem with my claim that not walking on the cracks in the pavement meant Spurs would win later that day that this reasoning isn’t sufficiently “watertight”, or is it that the reasoning is just plain hopeless?

Sorry but I fail see any similarity between the logic of my posts and the crack in the pavement example.   It might be more helpful to quote one of my posts rather than use this hypothetical example which I do not relate to.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4021 on: September 27, 2015, 04:25:00 PM »
AB,

Quote
Sorry but I fail see any similarity between the logic of my posts and the crack in the pavement example.   It might be more helpful to quote one of my posts rather than use this hypothetical example which I do not relate to.

The cracks in the pavement is an example of a logical fallacy – called the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. It concerns the false reasoning that, if B follows A, then A must be the cause of B.
 
It’s a fallacy you’ve used regularly, along with many others. I was merely trying to explain to you that there are such things as logical fallacies, and that by using them so freely you undermine the points you’re attempting to make. If you had a better understanding of what logical fallacies are you’d be better placed to avoid them in future, and so more likely to find that others wouldn’t dismiss your posts out of hand.
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4022 on: September 27, 2015, 07:04:46 PM »
AB,

Quote
Sorry but I fail see any similarity between the logic of my posts and the crack in the pavement example.   It might be more helpful to quote one of my posts rather than use this hypothetical example which I do not relate to.

The cracks in the pavement is an example of a logical fallacy – called the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. It concerns the false reasoning that, if B follows A, then A must be the cause of B.
 
It’s a fallacy you’ve used regularly, along with many others. I was merely trying to explain to you that there are such things as logical fallacies, and that by using them so freely you undermine the points you’re attempting to make. If you had a better understanding of what logical fallacies are you’d be better placed to avoid them in future, and so more likely to find that others wouldn’t dismiss your posts out of hand.
I see the obvious fallacy in the pavement example, but I can't relate to a similar fallacy in any of my posts.  They all make perfect sense to me.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4023 on: September 27, 2015, 07:37:56 PM »


If it doesn't stand to reason, it is probably wrong. If a rationale doesn't fit the data, we might need to rip it up and start again. We all use a combination of logic, common sense and personal experience like you say, so how come we arrive as such vastly different conclusions ? We are born into this world, blinking in bafflement and wonder; our parents give us a story which seems to make enough sense for the time being, they give us a sense of purpose and a sense of our place in the greater order of things.  That background story needs to be constantly revisited as we go through life accumulating new experience and insight but your rationale seems to me straight out of Sunday School, as if you've got stuck at that stage, never moving on.
The new experiences and insights I have accumulated since my childhood have actually increased my Christian faith, which is now far stronger than it ever was during Sunday School sessions. 
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4024 on: September 27, 2015, 08:03:53 PM »


If it doesn't stand to reason, it is probably wrong. If a rationale doesn't fit the data, we might need to rip it up and start again. We all use a combination of logic, common sense and personal experience like you say, so how come we arrive as such vastly different conclusions ? We are born into this world, blinking in bafflement and wonder; our parents give us a story which seems to make enough sense for the time being, they give us a sense of purpose and a sense of our place in the greater order of things.  That background story needs to be constantly revisited as we go through life accumulating new experience and insight but your rationale seems to me straight out of Sunday School, as if you've got stuck at that stage, never moving on.
The new experiences and insights I have accumulated since my childhood have actually increased my Christian faith, which is now far stronger than it ever was during Sunday School sessions.

Confirmation bias, Alan. You choose to ignore the fact that the same kind of experiences and insights as yours are felt by followers of other religions/gods.