Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

Free will is not an oxymoron.  It simply describes the human ability to make a conscious choice which is not pre determined by previous events.  If you believe in the human soul, as most people still do, you can accept the ability of the soul to initiate an act of free will.  Of course if you believe that the human body is entirely driven be deterministic events then you have to conclude that free will does not exist.  My own ability to make conscious choices is sufficient evidence for me to believe that I have a soul, which also gives me conscious awareness of my brain activity....

Here you have two mutually supporting fantasy beliefs, with 'soul' validating 'free will', and 'free will' validating 'soul'.  No doubt Blue will be along shortly to chastise you for this.

[Enki]

That's nothing - when I was 15, I sat next to a guy on the bus, who, it turned out, was the grocer who my girl-friend's mother used to visit, and who used to give her the odd mango free!  (Not a euphemism).   Well, I'll go to the bottom of the stairs - it makes you think, (not).

When I was about 50 I was doing some local history research at the Central Library in Hull, when a man entered, went to the inquiry desk and started asking about maps of a certain area on the outskirts of Hull. I pricked up my ears because the area he was interested in was close to where I spent my childhood. It seemed that he was the son of a Polish refugee who was in a post war refugee camp(which I well remembered), and wanted to know its exact location. So I introduced myself, and was in the middle of telling him what I remembered about the camp when a third older person who had been sitting in the library, joined us. He introduced himself, and said that he remembered that refugee camp well, because he had helped put up the original nissen huts for it before it opened!

Coincidence? Certainly. Significant? Only to the three of us. Feeling a divine presence at work? No. It certainly didn't occur to me then, even less now.

[Rhiannon]

Yeah, I have a really funny story too, except it isn't funny at all, it was someone's ego allowing them to be spiritually abusive and led to untold damage in my life. Made me feel special at the time though.

Boom boom.

[wigginhall]

That's nothing - when I was 15, I sat next to a guy on the bus, who, it turned out, was the grocer who my girl-friend's mother used to visit, and who used to give her the odd mango free!  (Not a euphemism).   Well, I'll go to the bottom of the stairs - it makes you think, (not).

When I was about 50 I was doing some local history research at the Central Library in Hull, when a man entered, went to the inquiry desk and started asking about maps of a certain area on the outskirts of Hull. I pricked up my ears because the area he was interested in was close to where I spent my childhood. It seemed that he was the son of a Polish refugee who was in a post war refugee camp(which I well remembered), and wanted to know its exact location. So I introduced myself, and was in the middle of telling him what I remembered about the camp when a third older person who had been sitting in the library, joined us. He introduced himself, and said that he remembered that refugee camp well, because he had helped put up the original nissen huts for it before it opened!

Coincidence? Certainly. Significant? Only to the three of us. Feeling a divine presence at work? No. It certainly didn't occur to me then, even less now.

Well, I can beat that.  My father met my mother at a dance during the war, when he was home on leave.  What?  I hear you cry, how is that possible?  How could my actual father and my actual mother have met in that random fashion?  Surely, this is not coincidence but the workings of the dynasts, as Hardy called them, or the Ancient Spirits, emanating from Andromeda, who I know in my heart are determining our fates.   They are calling me, it is time for a drink.

[Gordon]

Well, I can beat that.  My father met my mother at a dance during the war, when he was home on leave.  What?  I hear you cry, how is that possible?  How could my actual father and my actual mother have met in that random fashion?  Surely, this is not coincidence but the workings of the dynasts, as Hardy called them, or the Ancient Spirits, emanating from Andromeda, who I know in my heart are determining our fates.   They are calling me, it is time for a drink.

Know what you mean Wiggs: I've kept this a secret for years, but I'll admit it now - my late brother and I had the same parents.

Spooky or what!

[ekim]

That's nothing - when I was 15, I sat next to a guy on the bus, who, it turned out, was the grocer who my girl-friend's mother used to visit, and who used to give her the odd mango free!  (Not a euphemism).   Well, I'll go to the bottom of the stairs - it makes you think, (not).

When I was about 50 I was doing some local history research at the Central Library in Hull, when a man entered, went to the inquiry desk and started asking about maps of a certain area on the outskirts of Hull. I pricked up my ears because the area he was interested in was close to where I spent my childhood. It seemed that he was the son of a Polish refugee who was in a post war refugee camp(which I well remembered), and wanted to know its exact location. So I introduced myself, and was in the middle of telling him what I remembered about the camp when a third older person who had been sitting in the library, joined us. He introduced himself, and said that he remembered that refugee camp well, because he had helped put up the original nissen huts for it before it opened!

Coincidence? Certainly. Significant? Only to the three of us. Feeling a divine presence at work? No. It certainly didn't occur to me then, even less now.

Well, I can beat that.  My father met my mother at a dance during the war, when he was home on leave.  What?  I hear you cry, how is that possible?  How could my actual father and my actual mother have met in that random fashion?  Surely, this is not coincidence but the workings of the dynasts, as Hardy called them, or the Ancient Spirits, emanating from Andromeda, who I know in my heart are determining our fates.   They are calling me, it is time for a drink.

I remember an ?actor at an Oscar ceremony?, after pouring out his thanks to a long list of various people for their help in his achievement, he concluded by saying' .. 'and finally my thanks goes to the Catholic Church for the rhythm method, without which I wouldn't be here today'.

[Enki]

Well, I can beat that.  My father met my mother at a dance during the war, when he was home on leave.  What?  I hear you cry, how is that possible?  How could my actual father and my actual mother have met in that random fashion?  Surely, this is not coincidence but the workings of the dynasts, as Hardy called them, or the Ancient Spirits, emanating from Andromeda, who I know in my heart are determining our fates.   They are calling me, it is time for a drink.

Know what you mean Wiggs: I've kept this a secret for years, but I'll admit it now - my late brother and I had the same parents.

Spooky or what!

Parents! you were lucky. All hundred and twenty six of us orphans used to live in one room on stilts with a pirhanna infested lake below, huddled in one corner because half the floor was missing. Yet not one of us fell into water. How lucky is that!! 

[torridon]

Through my teens and twenties, I suppose, the best part of two decades, I was doing that, daily prayer, bible study, fellowship meetings, church attendance etc. By the time I got to my thirties, I was beginning to doubt the whole story, never having had a prayer answered, never having felt any divine presence in the ways that others claimed.  I was beginning to feel like I was praying to a brick wall, how could it be that people like Alan Burns apparently pray and get answers or at least some sort of response almost daily, but I could never elicit anything but complete silence from this God in 20 years ? Where I am now is basically a journey of trying to understand all that and fit in the diverse experiences of other peoples plus what we have learned through research synthesised into a single overarching rationale.

Hiya Torridon,
You are not alone in your quest. Some people I know seem to have lots of specific answers to prayer. Sometimes I think, "Yes, that's great", but at other times I think, "Yes, you have got what you asked for, but would it have happened anyway?" I hope this does not come across as bragging, but a while back a lady at our church was speaking to me about her not being given "pictures" and stuff like that and asked me why I did and she didn't. I said I've never had a "picture" as some people seem to have half a dozen each time they pray. She seemed genuinely shocked.

As I understand it, if God wants to give people such spiritual experiences, then if and when he does it is totally up to him. If that means I never get one, then so be it (see below for a bit of clarification though*). Despite what some people here think I am a highly logical person (psychological tests and some mathematical/verbal reasoning tests at my former employment show this). For me it is much more important to see what the claims of "Mere Christianity" are, to use CS Lewis's phrase. That includes the trustworthiness of the bible, of Jesus and so on. Because I don't "get pictures" does not mean that Jesus did not get raised from the dead. The claims of Christianity depend on whether Jesus was who the NT claims he was and, to be blunt, whether I get answers to prayer which are clearly supernatural will not affect that.

As for transformation experiences, I was nice before I became a Christian and am nice now. Some stuff has changed, but I think the big changes come in people perhaps when they need the biggest changes. Certainly God has got plenty to do in changing me, but I've not had to stop murdering people, sleeping with women other than my wife or whatever. Stuff he does need to do is along the lines of my finances, my time and so on.

Keep on thinking outside the box. It may lead you back to Jesus Christ. As Justin Welby said a while back, "Keep searching for the truth. One day you will bump into Jesus Christ."


* I have had one (strange) experience when a group of us were being prayed for, at a time when I was convinced "stuff" didn't happen to me. It did just that once. Just once in 35+ years as a Christian and it was a bit weird and a bit of a laugh. One Christian tried to convince me it was the "Baptism in the Spirit", but it was not. It just a bit weird and a bit funny.

Thanks for that Alan, altho' despite the thread title I wouldn't describe myself as 'searching for God' now, that phrase seems to imply that you've already decided what to believe and you are looking for experience or justification to validate it. I was like that as a younger man still heavily influenced by an upbringing in which God was an Unquestionable Truth, and it was expected that all good people would 'find' him sooner or later. Now I try to avoid such 'building a faith' routes; if there is a God who wants to be found and celebrated by humans he would not make himself invisible to people who value enquiry based on critical reasoning and evidence.

[Alien]

...

I have zero faith in anything.

Including your ability to put forward a logical argument?

I have zero faith in anything.

Is this hard to understand.

No one should ever have faith in anything.

Faith is gullibility.

Thank you for being so clear. You have no faith in yourself, in your ability to construct a logical argument, in your wife (if you have one), in Richard Dawkins to teach good biology, in the police, in the honesty of your local Tesco staff, etc.

[Gordon]

Well, I can beat that.  My father met my mother at a dance during the war, when he was home on leave.  What?  I hear you cry, how is that possible?  How could my actual father and my actual mother have met in that random fashion?  Surely, this is not coincidence but the workings of the dynasts, as Hardy called them, or the Ancient Spirits, emanating from Andromeda, who I know in my heart are determining our fates.   They are calling me, it is time for a drink.

Know what you mean Wiggs: I've kept this a secret for years, but I'll admit it now - my late brother and I had the same parents.

Spooky or what!

Parents! you were lucky. All hundred and twenty six of us orphans used to live in one room on stilts with a pirhanna infested lake below, huddled in one corner because half the floor was missing. Yet not one of us fell into water. How lucky is that!! 

Indeed - but you try and tell that to young people today and they won't believe you! 

[Andy]

...

I have zero faith in anything.

Including your ability to put forward a logical argument?

I have zero faith in anything.

Is this hard to understand.

No one should ever have faith in anything.

Faith is gullibility.

Thank you for being so clear. You have no faith in yourself, in your ability to construct a logical argument, in your wife (if you have one), in Richard Dawkins to teach good biology, in the police, in the honesty of your local Tesco staff, etc.

Are you honestly saying you think here BR means faith as in trust/confidence/reasonable expectation?

[jakswan]

...

I have zero faith in anything.

Including your ability to put forward a logical argument?

I have zero faith in anything.

Is this hard to understand.

No one should ever have faith in anything.

Faith is gullibility.

Thank you for being so clear. You have no faith in yourself, in your ability to construct a logical argument, in your wife (if you have one), in Richard Dawkins to teach good biology, in the police, in the honesty of your local Tesco staff, etc.

Such a childish post, I would suggest you look up the definition of faith again, we have been over this before.

[Alan Burns]

despite the thread title I wouldn't describe myself as 'searching for God' now, that phrase seems to imply that you've already decided what to believe and you are looking for experience or justification to validate it. I was like that as a younger man still heavily influenced by an upbringing in which God was an Unquestionable Truth, and it was expected that all good people would 'find' him sooner or later. Now I try to avoid such 'building a faith' routes; if there is a God who wants to be found and celebrated by humans he would not make himself invisible to people who value enquiry based on critical reasoning and evidence.

I find it strange that many people come to reject their faith after being in a strong faith environment in their childhood.

My own faith journey is completely the opposite.  I grew up in an environment that was not strong in faith.  I certainly was not indoctrinated.  I started to discover my true faith in my early twenties, and my Christian faith has been growing ever since.

I know other people who came to discover faith later in their lives, and they seem to have a stronger Christian faith than those who grew up with it.

[Outrider]

despite the thread title I wouldn't describe myself as 'searching for God' now, that phrase seems to imply that you've already decided what to believe and you are looking for experience or justification to validate it. I was like that as a younger man still heavily influenced by an upbringing in which God was an Unquestionable Truth, and it was expected that all good people would 'find' him sooner or later. Now I try to avoid such 'building a faith' routes; if there is a God who wants to be found and celebrated by humans he would not make himself invisible to people who value enquiry based on critical reasoning and evidence.

I find it strange that many people come to reject their faith after being in a strong faith environment in their childhood.

My own faith journey is completely the opposite.  I grew up in an environment that was not strong in faith.  I certainly was not indoctrinated.  I started to discover my true faith in my early twenties, and my Christian faith has been growing ever since.

I know other people who came to discover faith later in their lives, and they seem to have a stronger Christian faith than those who grew up with it.

I don't think it's that surprising that people will put more emphasis on those things that they've actively chosen for themselves than they do for those things that are just the default position of their life - none so pious as the converted

O.

[torridon]

despite the thread title I wouldn't describe myself as 'searching for God' now, that phrase seems to imply that you've already decided what to believe and you are looking for experience or justification to validate it. I was like that as a younger man still heavily influenced by an upbringing in which God was an Unquestionable Truth, and it was expected that all good people would 'find' him sooner or later. Now I try to avoid such 'building a faith' routes; if there is a God who wants to be found and celebrated by humans he would not make himself invisible to people who value enquiry based on critical reasoning and evidence.

I find it strange that many people come to reject their faith after being in a strong faith environment in their childhood.

We don't stay in our chldhood environment, we go out into the world, we broaden our experience, we can try to develop an understanding that makes sense in all contexts, not just that which we happened to be born into by accident. For me that has come to entail eschewing all faith positions and belief systems, as a matter of principle, and being sceptical with regards to all received wisdom. I now view all faith positions, not just the christian varieties, as seductions that need to be resisted as they narrow the mind.

[Rhiannon]

But isn't that in itself a narrow-minded thing to believe? Do you gave evidence that each and every belief narrows rather than expands?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Rhi,

But isn't that in itself a narrow-minded thing to believe? Do you gave evidence that each and every belief narrows rather than expands?

Well, inasmuch as as those other beliefs use dogma to explain observable phenomena, axiomatically yes: once you decide the explanation is "god did it" or some such what need is there of further enquiry that might show the dogma to be wrong?

That sounds pretty narrowing to me.   

[Rhiannon]

Does each and every faith position assume that?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Rhi,

Dies each and every faith position assume that?

Depends what you mean by "faith position". So far as I know all faiths (religious sense) use their positions for explanatory purposes, albeit with varying degrees of engagement: some christians for example hold with Genesis as literally true, others accept at least some of the evidence against that and opt for a naturalistic universe with a god with his hand on the tiller etc.

Either way, if you think that your dogma is the once and forever explanation for something then how could the closing down of further enquiry be anything but "narrowing" -  if only of the narrowing of different possibilities?

[torridon]

But isn't that in itself a narrow-minded thing to believe? Do you gave evidence that each and every belief narrows rather than expands?

I guess pagans are in a sense liberated to a degree from dogma, the dominant Abrahamic faiths having efficiently erased much of their traditional beliefs leaving modern pagans free from the accumulation of proscriptive truth claims that characterise mainstream religions. But I think there is a general underlying point about all beliefs - when we 'accept' a belief, we are making a choice, a tribal choice quite often, to ally ourselves with that truth claim and its entourage, this is simultaneously to put ourselves in opposition to any rival truth claims, thus narrowing the set of propositions that we will consider seriously. A muslim who accepts 'there is but one God and Mohammed is his Prophet' is narrowing his world to truths contained only in the Islamic traditions and closing his mind to all else.

[Nearly Sane]

How we make a choice on what to believe?

[Rhiannon]

I'm not even sure the majority of pagans have beliefs as such. This one certainly doesn't. But there's no choice involved. I'd rather like to believe in the garden of Eden on earth and happy ever after but it ain't gonna happen.

[Nearly Sane]

How can you be something without beliefs? I am an atheist because I lack a belief but surely pagans or anything that is an identification because of a positive statement needs a belief?

[Rhiannon]

For me being a pagan is something I experience, a way of life.  I suppose as a pantheist there's a belief in there but I don't believe in pantheism, I experience things and pantheist fits the best as an explanation of that.

Otherwise I have ideas and thoughts about how things might be, but they are just that - ideas, not beliefs.

I don't like labels much, they only serve to limit and divide. But how could we have this conversation without them?

[Alan Burns]

despite the thread title I wouldn't describe myself as 'searching for God' now, that phrase seems to imply that you've already decided what to believe and you are looking for experience or justification to validate it. I was like that as a younger man still heavily influenced by an upbringing in which God was an Unquestionable Truth, and it was expected that all good people would 'find' him sooner or later. Now I try to avoid such 'building a faith' routes; if there is a God who wants to be found and celebrated by humans he would not make himself invisible to people who value enquiry based on critical reasoning and evidence.

I find it strange that many people come to reject their faith after being in a strong faith environment in their childhood.

My own faith journey is completely the opposite.  I grew up in an environment that was not strong in faith.  I certainly was not indoctrinated.  I started to discover my true faith in my early twenties, and my Christian faith has been growing ever since.

I know other people who came to discover faith later in their lives, and they seem to have a stronger Christian faith than those who grew up with it.

I don't think it's that surprising that people will put more emphasis on those things that they've actively chosen for themselves than they do for those things that are just the default position of their life - none so pious as the converted

O.

I feel that people who grew up in a strong faith environment associate their Christian faith with their childhood, and categorise it accordingly, thinking they have grown out of it.  But by doing this they fail to grow their faith to its full potential.  There is so much to learn about Christianity - I still learn something new every day.  A lifetime is not long enough to fully embrace it.