Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

But isn't that in itself a narrow-minded thing to believe? Do you gave evidence that each and every belief narrows rather than expands?

Maybe our beliefs are self-serving constructions born of deeper psychological drivers.

I have a Thomas Creswick print on my wall. It is a landscape work of the Constable era, showing a bucolic peaceful English countryside, ducks in the river, a church in the distance, rustic buildings in a settled farmed landscape. I like it for its wealth of attention to detail, the light in the sky and so forth. But the composition overall is a sort of fiction, and maybe I have it on my wall to support a belief I like to entertain - that of a nostaligic vision of older times when people lived unhurried simple lives in harmony with the seasons, unchanged for hundreds of years. The painting hides rural poverty and replaces it with rural simplicity; urchins faces reflect not hunger, but the fireside glow from the hearth.

Maybe beliefs do reflect some elements of outer reality, but perhaps our beliefs really say more about us, as individuals, what our needs and tastes are. We are the believing ape; we cannot live without beliefs any more than we can live without food and water; we procure and cultivate our beliefs and live our lives within them.

[Rhiannon]

But isn't that in itself a narrow-minded thing to believe? Do you gave evidence that each and every belief narrows rather than expands?

Maybe our beliefs are self-serving constructions born of deeper psychological drivers.

I have a Thomas Creswick print on my wall. It is a landscape work of the Constable era, showing a bucolic peaceful English countryside, ducks in the river, a church in the distance, rustic buildings in a settled farmed landscape. I like it for its wealth of attention to detail, the light in the sky and so forth. But the composition overall is a sort of fiction, and maybe I have it on my wall to support a belief I like to entertain - that of a nostaligic vision of older times when people lived unhurried simple lives in harmony with the seasons, unchanged for hundreds of years. The painting hides rural poverty and replaces it with rural simplicity; urchins faces reflect not hunger, but the fireside glow from the hearth.

Maybe beliefs do reflect some elements of outer reality, but perhaps our beliefs really say more about us, as individuals, what our needs and tastes are. We are the believing ape; we cannot live without beliefs any more than we can live without food and water; we procure and cultivate our beliefs and live our lives within them.

I'm not entirely sure how this is relevant to the point of narrowing/expanding one' horizons. And I know what you mean about longing for a bucolic vision of the past - I used to have a collection of Helen Allingham prints that I now feel reflected my fear of the future that I carried at the time.

But yes, your last passage probably gets to the heart of it. If I have a need to express myself (and I think that I do) my paganism is very definitely driven by that above all else. It isn't about external reality at all, but about what is real within myself.

[ekim]

But isn't that in itself a narrow-minded thing to believe? Do you gave evidence that each and every belief narrows rather than expands?

Maybe our beliefs are self-serving constructions born of deeper psychological drivers.

I have a Thomas Creswick print on my wall. It is a landscape work of the Constable era, showing a bucolic peaceful English countryside, ducks in the river, a church in the distance, rustic buildings in a settled farmed landscape. I like it for its wealth of attention to detail, the light in the sky and so forth. But the composition overall is a sort of fiction, and maybe I have it on my wall to support a belief I like to entertain - that of a nostaligic vision of older times when people lived unhurried simple lives in harmony with the seasons, unchanged for hundreds of years. The painting hides rural poverty and replaces it with rural simplicity; urchins faces reflect not hunger, but the fireside glow from the hearth.

Maybe beliefs do reflect some elements of outer reality, but perhaps our beliefs really say more about us, as individuals, what our needs and tastes are. We are the believing ape; we cannot live without beliefs any more than we can live without food and water; we procure and cultivate our beliefs and live our lives within them.

I'm not entirely sure how this is relevant to the point of narrowing/expanding one' horizons. And I know what you mean about longing for a bucolic vision of the past - I used to have a collection of Helen Allingham prints that I now feel reflected my fear of the future that I carried at the time.

But yes, your last passage probably gets to the heart of it. If I have a need to express myself (and I think that I do) my paganism is very definitely driven by that above all else. It isn't about external reality at all, but about what is real within myself.

In other words an inner search for a truth which dispels beliefs?

[torridon]

But isn't that in itself a narrow-minded thing to believe? Do you gave evidence that each and every belief narrows rather than expands?

Maybe our beliefs are self-serving constructions born of deeper psychological drivers.

I have a Thomas Creswick print on my wall. It is a landscape work of the Constable era, showing a bucolic peaceful English countryside, ducks in the river, a church in the distance, rustic buildings in a settled farmed landscape. I like it for its wealth of attention to detail, the light in the sky and so forth. But the composition overall is a sort of fiction, and maybe I have it on my wall to support a belief I like to entertain - that of a nostaligic vision of older times when people lived unhurried simple lives in harmony with the seasons, unchanged for hundreds of years. The painting hides rural poverty and replaces it with rural simplicity; urchins faces reflect not hunger, but the fireside glow from the hearth.

Maybe beliefs do reflect some elements of outer reality, but perhaps our beliefs really say more about us, as individuals, what our needs and tastes are. We are the believing ape; we cannot live without beliefs any more than we can live without food and water; we procure and cultivate our beliefs and live our lives within them.

I'm not entirely sure how this is relevant to the point of narrowing/expanding one' horizons.

Maybe, apart from whatever other purposes they serve, we use our beliefs to encircle us; just as our houses provide safety and security against whatever is outside, we can build a circle of beliefs that to retreat into, a place of familiar restorative calm against unknowable vastness of external reality. We need inner cerebral horizons that are manageable, within touching distance, otherwise we end up facing existential angst in every waking moment.

[Rhiannon]

But isn't that in itself a narrow-minded thing to believe? Do you gave evidence that each and every belief narrows rather than expands?

Maybe our beliefs are self-serving constructions born of deeper psychological drivers.

I have a Thomas Creswick print on my wall. It is a landscape work of the Constable era, showing a bucolic peaceful English countryside, ducks in the river, a church in the distance, rustic buildings in a settled farmed landscape. I like it for its wealth of attention to detail, the light in the sky and so forth. But the composition overall is a sort of fiction, and maybe I have it on my wall to support a belief I like to entertain - that of a nostaligic vision of older times when people lived unhurried simple lives in harmony with the seasons, unchanged for hundreds of years. The painting hides rural poverty and replaces it with rural simplicity; urchins faces reflect not hunger, but the fireside glow from the hearth.

Maybe beliefs do reflect some elements of outer reality, but perhaps our beliefs really say more about us, as individuals, what our needs and tastes are. We are the believing ape; we cannot live without beliefs any more than we can live without food and water; we procure and cultivate our beliefs and live our lives within them.

I'm not entirely sure how this is relevant to the point of narrowing/expanding one' horizons. And I know what you mean about longing for a bucolic vision of the past - I used to have a collection of Helen Allingham prints that I now feel reflected my fear of the future that I carried at the time.

But yes, your last passage probably gets to the heart of it. If I have a need to express myself (and I think that I do) my paganism is very definitely driven by that above all else. It isn't about external reality at all, but about what is real within myself.

In other words an inner search for a truth which dispels beliefs?

Hmm, possibly that's it. Certain,y I find the notion of 'beliefs' wanting.

[Rhiannon]

But isn't that in itself a narrow-minded thing to believe? Do you gave evidence that each and every belief narrows rather than expands?

Maybe our beliefs are self-serving constructions born of deeper psychological drivers.

I have a Thomas Creswick print on my wall. It is a landscape work of the Constable era, showing a bucolic peaceful English countryside, ducks in the river, a church in the distance, rustic buildings in a settled farmed landscape. I like it for its wealth of attention to detail, the light in the sky and so forth. But the composition overall is a sort of fiction, and maybe I have it on my wall to support a belief I like to entertain - that of a nostaligic vision of older times when people lived unhurried simple lives in harmony with the seasons, unchanged for hundreds of years. The painting hides rural poverty and replaces it with rural simplicity; urchins faces reflect not hunger, but the fireside glow from the hearth.

Maybe beliefs do reflect some elements of outer reality, but perhaps our beliefs really say more about us, as individuals, what our needs and tastes are. We are the believing ape; we cannot live without beliefs any more than we can live without food and water; we procure and cultivate our beliefs and live our lives within them.

I'm not entirely sure how this is relevant to the point of narrowing/expanding one' horizons.

Maybe, apart from whatever other purposes they serve, we use our beliefs to encircle us; just as our houses provide safety and security against whatever is outside, we can build a circle of beliefs that to retreat into, a place of familiar restorative calm against unknowable vastness of external reality. We need inner cerebral horizons that are manageable, within touching distance, otherwise we end up facing existential angst in every waking moment.

That's interesting, and it comes back to the idea that we need to label things in order to make sense of our existence. Also the idea of encircling...it's not the beliefs that encircle me but the practice, the experience. Actually if I don't experience it, I do wander off into the realm of belief and that isn't good for me. Increasingly I've found that my paganism is about this moment.

Yes, I get the existential stuff. My younger daughter is going through this at the moment, she's an atheist and doesn't know what happens to us when we die, so she's getting anxious about not knowing. So every day now we're doing some mindfulness stuff together...all we need is this moment, this breath.

[floo]

When my two older grandsons were three and two my father died, they wanted to know what had happened to him. I told them that I was not sure if there was a heaven, but if there was the sort of thing he might get up to there, based on what he liked to do in life. The boys had a wonderful time creating all sorts of scenarios for him, like his own chocolate factory, bakery and a formula one racing team. When my mother died we joked that he would be reduced to eating a lettuce leaf and tomato when she confiscated all his yummy food stuffs. Grandma would also drive his racing car and frighten everyone in heaven as she drove like a bat out of hell down here!

[Alan Burns]

Matthew 18:10

 ‘Anyone who welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. See that you never despise any of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven are continually in the presence of my Father in heaven.’

Today the Roman Catholic Church celebrates our Guardian Angels

Many people today, including Christians, are very sceptical about the existence of Guardian Angels, but the bible advises that we should listen to their voice.  They are here to help us, but we tend to ignore them, and in doing so may well be under the influence of a demon spirit instead. (I feel that CS Lewis had a profound insight to the truth with his "Screwtape Letters")

When I meet up with my Guardian Angel in heaven, I will be giving a great big hug for a job well done!

[Alan Burns]

But isn't that in itself a narrow-minded thing to believe? Do you gave evidence that each and every belief narrows rather than expands?

Maybe our beliefs are self-serving constructions born of deeper psychological drivers.

I have a Thomas Creswick print on my wall. It is a landscape work of the Constable era, showing a bucolic peaceful English countryside, ducks in the river, a church in the distance, rustic buildings in a settled farmed landscape. I like it for its wealth of attention to detail, the light in the sky and so forth. But the composition overall is a sort of fiction, and maybe I have it on my wall to support a belief I like to entertain - that of a nostaligic vision of older times when people lived unhurried simple lives in harmony with the seasons, unchanged for hundreds of years. The painting hides rural poverty and replaces it with rural simplicity; urchins faces reflect not hunger, but the fireside glow from the hearth.

Maybe beliefs do reflect some elements of outer reality, but perhaps our beliefs really say more about us, as individuals, what our needs and tastes are. We are the believing ape; we cannot live without beliefs any more than we can live without food and water; we procure and cultivate our beliefs and live our lives within them.

I'm not entirely sure how this is relevant to the point of narrowing/expanding one' horizons.

Maybe, apart from whatever other purposes they serve, we use our beliefs to encircle us; just as our houses provide safety and security against whatever is outside, we can build a circle of beliefs that to retreat into, a place of familiar restorative calm against unknowable vastness of external reality. We need inner cerebral horizons that are manageable, within touching distance, otherwise we end up facing existential angst in every waking moment.

That's interesting, and it comes back to the idea that we need to label things in order to make sense of our existence. Also the idea of encircling...it's not the beliefs that encircle me but the practice, the experience. Actually if I don't experience it, I do wander off into the realm of belief and that isn't good for me. Increasingly I've found that my paganism is about this moment.

Yes, I get the existential stuff. My younger daughter is going through this at the moment, she's an atheist and doesn't know what happens to us when we die, so she's getting anxious about not knowing. So every day now we're doing some mindfulness stuff together...all we need is this moment, this breath.

I feel that people get tied up in knots with the logic in trying to make sense of their existence.  I do not believe we have the capability to do this on our own.  I just accept that God brought me into existence to fulfill a divine purpose.  This belief does not answer all my questions, but nothing else makes any sense to me.

[Enki]

Matthew 18:10

 ‘Anyone who welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. See that you never despise any of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven are continually in the presence of my Father in heaven.’

Today the Roman Catholic Church celebrates our Guardian Angels

Many people today, including Christians, are very sceptical about the existence of Guardian Angels, but the bible advises that we should listen to their voice.  They are here to help us, but we tend to ignore them, and in doing so may well be under the influence of a demon spirit instead. (I feel that CS Lewis had a profound insight to the truth with his "Screwtape Letters")

When I meet up with my Guardian Angel in heaven, I will be giving a great big hug for a job well done!

Good for you. Obviously I don't have any belief in guardian angels or demon spirits for the simple reason that I don't see the slightest evidence of their existence. If I did have a belief in guardian angels and met up with mine in heaven(assuming I reached such a hallowed place) I think I would be inclined to spend the rest of my(infinite?) time in trying to change the rules of their guardianship to petition God to exercise much greater compassion for all humans(not just myself) because, as I see it, they are being asked to act as guardians with both hands tied behind their backs.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Matthew 18:10

 ‘Anyone who welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. See that you never despise any of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven are continually in the presence of my Father in heaven.’

Today the Roman Catholic Church celebrates our Guardian Angels

Many people today, including Christians, are very sceptical about the existence of Guardian Angels, but the bible advises that we should listen to their voice.  They are here to help us, but we tend to ignore them, and in doing so may well be under the influence of a demon spirit instead. (I feel that CS Lewis had a profound insight to the truth with his "Screwtape Letters")

When I meet up with my Guardian Angel in heaven, I will be giving a great big hug for a job well done!

That's another logical fallacy - the appeal to authority.

Simply quoting from a book says nothing to whether it's authoritative.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I feel that people get tied up in knots with the logic in trying to make sense of their existence.  I do not believe we have the capability to do this on our own.  I just accept that God brought me into existence to fulfill a divine purpose.  This belief does not answer all my questions, but nothing else makes any sense to me.

That's another logical fallacy - the appeal to consequences.

That this explanation makes sense to you personally says nothing to whether your belief sits on robust or coherent reasoning.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Matthew 18:10

 ‘Anyone who welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. See that you never despise any of these little ones, for I tell you that their angels in heaven are continually in the presence of my Father in heaven.’

Today the Roman Catholic Church celebrates our Guardian Angels

Many people today, including Christians, are very sceptical about the existence of Guardian Angels, but the bible advises that we should listen to their voice.  They are here to help us, but we tend to ignore them, and in doing so may well be under the influence of a demon spirit instead. (I feel that CS Lewis had a profound insight to the truth with his "Screwtape Letters")

When I meet up with my Guardian Angel in heaven, I will be giving a great big hug for a job well done!

That's another logical fallacy - the appeal to authority.

Simply quoting from a book says nothing to whether it's authoritative.

depends on the book

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

depends on the book

No it doesn't. If you want to cite a book - any book - as authoritative, then you need to establish its authority first. Just quoting it and then asserting your conclusion on that basis is a logical fallacy.     

[Samuel]

But isn't that in itself a narrow-minded thing to believe? Do you gave evidence that each and every belief narrows rather than expands?

Maybe our beliefs are self-serving constructions born of deeper psychological drivers.

I have a Thomas Creswick print on my wall. It is a landscape work of the Constable era, showing a bucolic peaceful English countryside, ducks in the river, a church in the distance, rustic buildings in a settled farmed landscape. I like it for its wealth of attention to detail, the light in the sky and so forth. But the composition overall is a sort of fiction, and maybe I have it on my wall to support a belief I like to entertain - that of a nostaligic vision of older times when people lived unhurried simple lives in harmony with the seasons, unchanged for hundreds of years. The painting hides rural poverty and replaces it with rural simplicity; urchins faces reflect not hunger, but the fireside glow from the hearth.

Maybe beliefs do reflect some elements of outer reality, but perhaps our beliefs really say more about us, as individuals, what our needs and tastes are. We are the believing ape; we cannot live without beliefs any more than we can live without food and water; we procure and cultivate our beliefs and live our lives within them.

I'm not entirely sure how this is relevant to the point of narrowing/expanding one' horizons.

Maybe, apart from whatever other purposes they serve, we use our beliefs to encircle us; just as our houses provide safety and security against whatever is outside, we can build a circle of beliefs that to retreat into, a place of familiar restorative calm against unknowable vastness of external reality. We need inner cerebral horizons that are manageable, within touching distance, otherwise we end up facing existential angst in every waking moment.

That's interesting, and it comes back to the idea that we need to label things in order to make sense of our existence. Also the idea of encircling...it's not the beliefs that encircle me but the practice, the experience. Actually if I don't experience it, I do wander off into the realm of belief and that isn't good for me. Increasingly I've found that my paganism is about this moment.

Yes, I get the existential stuff. My younger daughter is going through this at the moment, she's an atheist and doesn't know what happens to us when we die, so she's getting anxious about not knowing. So every day now we're doing some mindfulness stuff together...all we need is this moment, this breath.

I don't see it like that so much. I think of beliefs more like hand rails, not encircling us but stretching out away from us into those unknowable depths of external reality. They are the means by which we extend ourself outwards by providing a tether, a connection to a whole that represents our idea of ourselves. The development of this kind of framework is cumulative and also integrated with all the other ways we 'know' the universe, through evidence, experience etc. If we were always hiding or retreating behind walls of belief then we would never grow at all, and most people inevitable do grow, and change, over time. I picture it like the edge of a very high building. Some people cling terrified to their handholds, eyes tightly shut, but others hold on while staring out at the view, working out ways to make the building higher.

[Rhiannon]

When Torridon mentioned the idea of a circle of beliefs, inevitably the image I got in my head was of a grove of trees. It's very hard to explain but it's not like being behind a wall at all.

[Alan Burns]

Just a follow up to my post yesterday about Guardian Angels.

My wife and I were at a birthday celebration last night held in Stokesley town hall.  As we had had a few drinks, we left the car in the car park outside the town hall and walked home, thinking I would have a leisurely walk in the morning to bring back the car.  I woke up at 7am this morning with a start, a voice telling me that it was the farmers market today and I would have to move the car pretty quickly or it would be towed away.  The thing is I am never aware of which day of the month the farmers market is on - it usually takes me by surprise.  My wife asked me what on earth reminded me about the farmers market, I replied that I must have a very good Guardian Angel. 

[Nearly Sane]

Meanwhile the guardian angels of some Christians in Oregon were having a fag while they got shot

[Alan Burns]

Meanwhile the guardian angels of some Christians in Oregon were having a fag while they got shot

It is a sad fact that there is evil in this world, and much of it is targeted at Christians.  God can't remove evil without removing the free will of individual beings, but He has promised that He will help us to cope with whatever comes if we can put our trust and faith in Him.  It is not easy for us to see the big picture, so I put my trust in the One who came to save us from sin and death - to guide us in everything we do.

[jakswan]

Meanwhile the guardian angels of some Christians in Oregon were having a fag while they got shot

It is a sad fact that there is evil in this world, and much of it is targeted at Christians.  God can't remove evil without removing the free will of individual beings, but He has promised that He will help us to cope with whatever comes if we can put our trust and faith in Him.  It is not easy for us to see the big picture, so I put my trust in the One who came to save us from sin and death - to guide us in everything we do.

But your guardian angel can remind you where you left your car, but murderer with a gun too much of a stretch.

[Nearly Sane]

Meanwhile the guardian angels of some Christians in Oregon were having a fag while they got shot

It is a sad fact that there is evil in this world, and much of it is targeted at Christians.  God can't remove evil without removing the free will of individual beings, but He has promised that He will help us to cope with whatever comes if we can put our trust and faith in Him.  It is not easy for us to see the big picture, so I put my trust in the One who came to save us from sin and death - to guide us in everything we do.

Could have told the Christians that there was going to be a nutter just like you think you were told about the farmers market. Your god is an exceptional douchebag

[Nearly Sane]

And, of course, based on previous answers from AlanBurns, the shooting of the people in Oregon is a miracle.

[Alan Burns]

Meanwhile the guardian angels of some Christians in Oregon were having a fag while they got shot

It is a sad fact that there is evil in this world, and much of it is targeted at Christians.  God can't remove evil without removing the free will of individual beings, but He has promised that He will help us to cope with whatever comes if we can put our trust and faith in Him.  It is not easy for us to see the big picture, so I put my trust in the One who came to save us from sin and death - to guide us in everything we do.

But your guardian angel can remind you where you left your car, but murderer with a gun too much of a stretch.

I can only presume that if the gunman had listened to his Guarian Angel instead of an evil demon he would not have fired the shots.

[ippy]

Meanwhile the guardian angels of some Christians in Oregon were having a fag while they got shot

It is a sad fact that there is evil in this world, and much of it is targeted at Christians.  God can't remove evil without removing the free will of individual beings, but He has promised that He will help us to cope with whatever comes if we can put our trust and faith in Him.  It is not easy for us to see the big picture, so I put my trust in the One who came to save us from sin and death - to guide us in everything we do.

But your guardian angel can remind you where you left your car, but murderer with a gun too much of a stretch.

I can only presume that if the gunman had listened to his Guarian Angel instead of an evil demon he would not have fired the shots.

You've got to be off your trolly Alan, "Angles"?

What about us Leprechauns?

I'll give you the "Angles" idea makes about as much sense as as the "leprechauns idea"; how have you managed to get so much unsupported nonsense into your head?

ippy

[ekim]

Meanwhile the guardian angels of some Christians in Oregon were having a fag while they got shot

Haven't you heard... God hates fags!