Searching for GOD...

[ippy]

If God wanted to be found, he wouldn't hide. 

God is there for everyone.  It is the power of evil which tries to keep Him hidden.  When the scales of deception fall away, you will be amazed at His presence.

I suppose there's nothing like rationality, just don't let it worry you Alan and keep taking the tablets.

Animal behaviourists to much of a challenge for your ideas Alan? (Frans De Waal, remember)?

ippy

[Leonard James]

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

Fixed that for you - how people get to a fulfilling life isn't that important. Religion is a problem not because people find the 'wrong' sort of fulfillment, but because it too often leads people to try to impose their sort of fulfillment on others.

Being happy is far, far more important than being 'right', but being 'right' is only a problem if your hobby is being 'right' AT people.

O.

Don't understand why you found it necessary to delete part of my post, O, I think it works for Ippy and me.

[torridon]

If God wanted to be found, he wouldn't hide. 

God is there for everyone.  It is the power of evil which tries to keep Him hidden.  When the scales of deception fall away, you will be amazed at His presence.

This looks real poor reasoning to me. You propose a god of such inconceivable power that he creates an entire universe and everything in it by nothing more than willpower.  Then you go on in the next breath to admit that this same god is so feeble he cannot overcome the power of evil that he created or allowed to come into existence in the first place.  Back to the drawing board with you.

[Rhiannon]

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

Fixed that for you - how people get to a fulfilling life isn't that important. Religion is a problem not because people find the 'wrong' sort of fulfillment, but because it too often leads people to try to impose their sort of fulfillment on others.

Being happy is far, far more important than being 'right', but being 'right' is only a problem if your hobby is being 'right' AT people.

O.

Don't understand why you found it necessary to delete part of my post, O, I think it works for Ippy and me.

Don't you think people who are happy are lucky if they are happy theists?

[ippy]

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

Fixed that for you - how people get to a fulfilling life isn't that important. Religion is a problem not because people find the 'wrong' sort of fulfillment, but because it too often leads people to try to impose their sort of fulfillment on others.

Being happy is far, far more important than being 'right', but being 'right' is only a problem if your hobby is being 'right' AT people.

O.

Don't understand why you found it necessary to delete part of my post, O, I think it works for Ippy and me.

Don't you think people who are happy are lucky if they are happy theists?

No.

ippy

[Outrider]

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

Fixed that for you - how people get to a fulfilling life isn't that important. Religion is a problem not because people find the 'wrong' sort of fulfillment, but because it too often leads people to try to impose their sort of fulfillment on others.

Being happy is far, far more important than being 'right', but being 'right' is only a problem if your hobby is being 'right' AT people.

O.

Don't understand why you found it necessary to delete part of my post, O, I think it works for Ippy and me.

Because the important part is that people are happy - if they find that happiness in religions belief so be it.

O.

[Rhiannon]

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

Fixed that for you - how people get to a fulfilling life isn't that important. Religion is a problem not because people find the 'wrong' sort of fulfillment, but because it too often leads people to try to impose their sort of fulfillment on others.

Being happy is far, far more important than being 'right', but being 'right' is only a problem if your hobby is being 'right' AT people.

O.

Don't understand why you found it necessary to delete part of my post, O, I think it works for Ippy and me.

Don't you think people who are happy are lucky if they are happy theists?

No.

ippy

Then that puts you in the same camp as the 'you'd be happy if you only found God' people. You think that you know what's best for everyone and that being like you is the only valid way to be.

[ippy]

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

Fixed that for you - how people get to a fulfilling life isn't that important. Religion is a problem not because people find the 'wrong' sort of fulfillment, but because it too often leads people to try to impose their sort of fulfillment on others.

Being happy is far, far more important than being 'right', but being 'right' is only a problem if your hobby is being 'right' AT people.

O.

Don't understand why you found it necessary to delete part of my post, O, I think it works for Ippy and me.

Don't you think people who are happy are lucky if they are happy theists?

No.

ippy

Then that puts you in the same camp as the 'you'd be happy if you only found God' people. You think that you know what's best for everyone and that being like you is the only valid way to be.

How does deluded convert into lucky?

Wouldn't that be a bit like saying the good thing about being potty is at least you wouldn't know much about it?

ippy

[Rhiannon]

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

Fixed that for you - how people get to a fulfilling life isn't that important. Religion is a problem not because people find the 'wrong' sort of fulfillment, but because it too often leads people to try to impose their sort of fulfillment on others.

Being happy is far, far more important than being 'right', but being 'right' is only a problem if your hobby is being 'right' AT people.

O.

Don't understand why you found it necessary to delete part of my post, O, I think it works for Ippy and me.

Don't you think people who are happy are lucky if they are happy theists?

No.

ippy

Then that puts you in the same camp as the 'you'd be happy if you only found God' people. You think that you know what's best for everyone and that being like you is the only valid way to be.

How does deluded convert into lucky?

Wouldn't that be a bit like saying the good thing about being potty is at least you wouldn't know much about it?

ippy

Firstly, that's offensive to people with mental health issues. Secondly, that assumes all theists are deluded. You don't know that belief always arises from delusion.

[Outrider]

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

Fixed that for you - how people get to a fulfilling life isn't that important. Religion is a problem not because people find the 'wrong' sort of fulfillment, but because it too often leads people to try to impose their sort of fulfillment on others.

Being happy is far, far more important than being 'right', but being 'right' is only a problem if your hobby is being 'right' AT people.

O.

Don't understand why you found it necessary to delete part of my post, O, I think it works for Ippy and me.

Don't you think people who are happy are lucky if they are happy theists?

No.

ippy

Then that puts you in the same camp as the 'you'd be happy if you only found God' people. You think that you know what's best for everyone and that being like you is the only valid way to be.

How does deluded convert into lucky?

Because their 'delusion' brings them happiness. How do you know it's a delusion? You can't see in their head, you don't know that what they claim is divine revelation isn't really, genuinely, actually divine revelation.

Wouldn't that be a bit like saying the good thing about being potty is at least you wouldn't know much about it?

My daughter's profoundly autistic, has no real concept of other people as actual people, they're just bits of furniture that move and make strange noises to her. It's heartbreaking, at times, that she show no affection, no love, no connection with us or with anyone else, but that pain is ours: she's happy, and she continues to be happy with the simplest of inputs into her life.

She is unaware of the broader 'reality' - as you suggest religious people are - but she's happy, and I can't ask for anything more than that.

O.

[Alan Burns]

Outrider I'll go along with most of that, but I'm not looking for any him; there's no good reason that makes me want to look.

ippy

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

But what is it that is getting fulfilled?  Is it a few atoms inside your brain, or is it your God given soul?

[Outrider]

Outrider I'll go along with most of that, but I'm not looking for any him; there's no good reason that makes me want to look.

ippy

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

But what is it that is getting fulfilled?  Is it a few atoms inside your brain, or is it your God given soul?

Does it matter?

O.

[Leonard James]

Because the important part is that people are happy - if they find that happiness in religions belief so be it.

O.

Which is precisely why I told Ippy that we are lucky not to need it.

[Leonard James]

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

But what is it that is getting fulfilled?  Is it a few atoms inside your brain, or is it your God given soul?

There is no justification in calling a part of our brain "our soul". That is merely something you have invented to fit your religious belief.

[ippy]

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

Fixed that for you - how people get to a fulfilling life isn't that important. Religion is a problem not because people find the 'wrong' sort of fulfillment, but because it too often leads people to try to impose their sort of fulfillment on others.

Being happy is far, far more important than being 'right', but being 'right' is only a problem if your hobby is being 'right' AT people.

O.

Don't understand why you found it necessary to delete part of my post, O, I think it works for Ippy and me.

Don't you think people who are happy are lucky if they are happy theists?

No.

ippy

Then that puts you in the same camp as the 'you'd be happy if you only found God' people. You think that you know what's best for everyone and that being like you is the only valid way to be.

How does deluded convert into lucky?

Wouldn't that be a bit like saying the good thing about being potty is at least you wouldn't know much about it?

ippy

Firstly, that's offensive to people with mental health issues. Secondly, that assumes all theists are deluded. You don't know that belief always arises from delusion.

Yes it would be offensive if I was directing that statement at an individual, it obviously wasn't.

There's no evidence that supports any of the beliefs you are referring to, so what other explanation would you use to describe completely unsupported beliefs?

If I kept expounding my belief in Elvis, being taken seriously would more than likely be a serious problem for me; but if someone holds a similar belief that has a similar amount of evidence to support it and attributes it to religion that makes it OK?

Is the above what you're saying?

ippy

[Outrider]

Because the important part is that people are happy - if they find that happiness in religions belief so be it.

O.

Which is precisely why I told Ippy that we are lucky not to need it.

No, we aren't lucky we don't need it, faith holds no real problems for the people that hold it so long as they are happy with it. We would be lucky if other people were happy without it - religion is a problem because it tends to need to be imposed on other people, tends to impose its restrictions on those that don't adhere to its tenets.

O.

[King Oberon]

I was reading some of the threads and it is abundantly clear that people do not seek the truth regarding God but simply reasons to keep from believing in him.

The 'reasons' your talking about sass are evidence (outside your imagination) that he/she/it has or does exist but your not being singled out as the same goes for any gods or religions you care to mention.

If any these supernatural beings would care to make an appearance (except in bread of skirting boards) I would change my mind after scrutinizing it of course.

[Leonard James]

No, we aren't lucky we don't need it, faith holds no real problems for the people that hold it so long as they are happy with it. We would be lucky if other people were happy without it - religion is a problem because it tends to need to be imposed on other people, tends to impose its restrictions on those that don't adhere to its tenets.

O.

No matter what you say, O, I consider that being able to be happy without god beliefs is a matter of luck. The credulous people that need gods lumber themselves with somebody else's ideas about how to live ... and that can never give the same satisfaction as working it out yourself.

[ippy]

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

But what is it that is getting fulfilled?  Is it a few atoms inside your brain, or is it your God given soul?

There is no justification in calling a part of our brain "our soul". That is merely something you have invented to fit your religious belief.

Absolutely! The man's living in some sort of dream world, naff off; soul?

ippy

[Outrider]

No, we aren't lucky we don't need it, faith holds no real problems for the people that hold it so long as they are happy with it. We would be lucky if other people were happy without it - religion is a problem because it tends to need to be imposed on other people, tends to impose its restrictions on those that don't adhere to its tenets.

O.

No matter what you say, O, I consider that being able to be happy without god beliefs is a matter of luck. The credulous people that need gods lumber themselves with somebody else's ideas about how to live ... and that can never give the same satisfaction as working it out yourself.

Yet the reality is that we are all a product of the interactions and experiences we have had in our lives - yes it's purely 'luck' that we are atheists and not theists, as different experiences would have resulted in us being different people.

As it is, your experiences have led you to be the sort of person that is only satisfied with their independence - other people are raised to feel a sense of contentment from being a part of a larger community, from accepting a reality larger than anything they could ever be. Their happiness is the point, and if they're happy they're as lucky with their lot as you are with yours.

The unlucky people are the ones whose experiences lead them to atheism in theocratic countries, to Islam in the Bible belt of the US, to Scientology... well, just to Scientology, I suppose.

O.

[Rhiannon]

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

Fixed that for you - how people get to a fulfilling life isn't that important. Religion is a problem not because people find the 'wrong' sort of fulfillment, but because it too often leads people to try to impose their sort of fulfillment on others.

Being happy is far, far more important than being 'right', but being 'right' is only a problem if your hobby is being 'right' AT people.

O.

Don't understand why you found it necessary to delete part of my post, O, I think it works for Ippy and me.

Don't you think people who are happy are lucky if they are happy theists?

No.

ippy

Then that puts you in the same camp as the 'you'd be happy if you only found God' people. You think that you know what's best for everyone and that being like you is the only valid way to be.

How does deluded convert into lucky?

Wouldn't that be a bit like saying the good thing about being potty is at least you wouldn't know much about it?

ippy

Firstly, that's offensive to people with mental health issues. Secondly, that assumes all theists are deluded. You don't know that belief always arises from delusion.

Yes it would be offensive if I was directing that statement at an individual, it obviously wasn't.

There's no evidence that supports any of the beliefs you are referring to, so what other explanation would you use to describe completely unsupported beliefs?

If I kept expounding my belief in Elvis, being taken seriously would more than likely be a serious problem for me; but if someone holds a similar belief that has a similar amount of evidence to support it and attributes it to religion that makes it OK?

Is the above what you're saying?

ippy

Individuals have mental illness, Ippy, including posters on this forum, including me.

I don't know what a 'belief in Elvis' means.

We don't know enough about the brain and how beliefs form. Some clearly arrive from indoctrination, fear, or wishful thinking, but not all. If someone has, say, a genetic disposition to belief, are they deluded? How do you know that a belief isn't real just because there is no visible evidence for it?

[Leonard James]

As it is, your experiences have led you to be the sort of person that is only satisfied with their independence ...

Not true! My personal happiness derives from being part of the motley assortment that is humanity, accepting that nature has made me what I am, and doing my best to get as much happiness from my lot as I can.

[Rhiannon]

As it is, your experiences have led you to be the sort of person that is only satisfied with their independence ...

Not true! My personal happiness derives from being part of the motley assortment that is humanity, accepting that nature has made me what I am, and doing my best to get as much happiness from my lot as I can.

But you'd be happier if the theists stopped believing and became like you? Aren't theists just a part of the 'motley assortment' too? Isn't it on,y an issue if I try to make my reason for happiness yours also?

[Outrider]

As it is, your experiences have led you to be the sort of person that is only satisfied with their independence ...

Not true! My personal happiness derives from being part of the motley assortment that is humanity, accepting that nature has made me what I am, and doing my best to get as much happiness from my lot as I can.

Not my best phrasing- I didn't mean that you're a happy hermit I meant that you're not averse to agreeing with people, but you derive your happiness from the sense that you've come to your own conclusions.

O.

[Leonard James]

As it is, your experiences have led you to be the sort of person that is only satisfied with their independence ...

Not true! My personal happiness derives from being part of the motley assortment that is humanity, accepting that nature has made me what I am, and doing my best to get as much happiness from my lot as I can.

Not my best phrasing- I didn't mean that you're a happy hermit I meant that you're not averse to agreeing with people, but you derive your happiness from the sense that you've come to your own conclusions.

O.

It is perfectly natural to feel satisfied when you achieve something yourself.  It is always more satisfying than to need the help of others.