Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

Well I think the posts on page 185 of this thread cover this but leaving that aside, you were the one who made a positive claim about what they meant which you now seem.to have made on the basis of absence of reading their posts, did you mean to do that?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabs,

Also, Islam gives me an easy reason to not drink, and I feel happier not drinking but doubt I would have the will power or self-control to have stopped without the religious commitment.

Also, drinking gives me an easy reason to not to be a muslim, and I feel happier not being a muslim but doubt I would have the will power or self-control to have stopped without the drinking commitment.

There you go - you get what I mean then. There are lots of people happier not being a Muslim, but they don't all need to commit to drinking to avoid being a Muslim, but you do.

I like drinking shots - it makes me happy. But I managed to stop because being a Muslim made me happier. Does being a Muslim make you happy but drinking make you happier?

[Leonard James]

There you go - you get what I mean then. There are lots of people happier not being a Muslim, but they don't all need to commit to drinking to avoid being a Muslim, but you do.

Do you seriously believe that Blue needs to drink to avoid being a Muslim?

Don't you think that perhaps you have misunderstood the meaning of his post?

[torridon]

I agree - I find faith very useful. There are many times when I can't be bothered or do not feel like putting myself out to do something specific for someone else but when I view the situation as a theist, the task suddenly feels less burdensome, hence I'm happy.

For example I just had a birthday lunch for my younger daughter at my house yesterday for 30 people. In the middle of the lunch I agreed to hand my house keys over to someone else to have a lunch next weekend in my house for 40 people for my husband's teenage nephew's birthday (his mother - my husband's brother's wife - has cancer). My husband, the kids, my parents and I won't be there for the start of it because my older daughter is in a ballet performance that I have bought tickets for so other family members will have to set it up.

My initial feeling was I can't be bothered to deal with it and have to clear up afterwards as it is 2 weekends in a row but with my theist hat on the whole issue felt less of a burden. So the faith thing works for me in terms of making me feel happier about tasks.   

Also, Islam gives me an easy reason to not drink, and I feel happier not drinking but doubt I would have the will power or self-control to have stopped without the religious commitment.

That's interesting, it makes it sound as if a religion is something that we put on when we wake up in the morning, a suit of clothes we wear because it empowers, strengthens and uplifts us during the day. I can't see that working for me as most religions are founded upon 'objective' truth claims which must at the end of the day be either correct or incorrect but which also cannot be objectively verified and furthermore acceptance of one bunch of such truth claims often implicity carries a denial of all rival truth claims, resulting in disharmony on a now global scale. I see a paradox there, between the empowering personal value of religious practice, and the impossibility of the claims that the practices are founded on.

[Leonard James]

Founding your life on a non-evidenced belief is not for me, and I think that applies to all atheists.

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

Well I think the posts on page 185 of this thread cover this but leaving that aside, you were the one who made a positive claim about what they meant which you now seem.to have made on the basis of absence of reading their posts, did you mean to do that?

Yes. There's nothing on 185 from Len that says or even implies that he thinks that, if he hasn't experienced a god, then others who think they have must thereby be deluded. They may well be demonstrably deluded, mistaken etc for any manner of reasons, but he isn't claiming that his non-experience of a god is one of them.

Gabriella's responses was therefore wide of the mark I think.

As for not "reading their posts", I did read the posts to which Gabriella was responding and was careful to say "so far as I'm aware" in respect of any posts that Len may historically have made before then. I've never seen him make the claim she ascribes to him, but I don't know definitively that, in a fit of irrationality, he didn't wake up one morning six months ago and do so.

 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

There you go - you get what I mean then. There are lots of people happier not being a Muslim, but they don't all need to commit to drinking to avoid being a Muslim, but you do.

Do you seriously believe that Blue needs to drink to avoid being a Muslim?

Don't you think that perhaps you have misunderstood the meaning of his post?

Misunderstood the meaning of his post? How do you understand the meaning of Blue's post? He wrote that he doubts he "would have the will power or self-control to have stopped [being a Muslim] without the drinking commitment."

Leonard, my advice to you would be check with Blue about how serious he was when he wrote that post and assume the same level of seriousness in my response.

Oh and maybe when you get your thoughts together you could respond to the posts made by NS, Blue and me about whether you meant by your post on P.185 that your belief (that theists are delusional to believe in god based on their personal experience) should be taken any more seriously than a theist's belief in God, and if so on what basis. Can you demonstrate that a theist's personal experience is delusion? Have you seen medical evidence of the delusion based on brain activity or perhaps you have evidence that god does not exist, in which case belief in god would be a demonstrably false belief.

The 2nd part of the question was to ask you to demonstrate that you are lucky and theists are not as lucky as you. Is that what your post meant? I think Blue said that you hadn't claimed this at all. Whereas NS and I both thought that you had made this claim.

My understanding of your claim was that you are lucky for holding your particular belief, whereas you consider theists unlucky for holding their beliefs - even though your respective beliefs makes you and theists happy. Is that correct?

[Alan Burns]

We are among the lucky people who find life fulfilling and understandable without the need of god beliefs.

But what is it that is getting fulfilled?  Is it a few atoms inside your brain, or is it your God given soul?

There is no justification in calling a part of our brain "our soul".

I entirely agree with you Len.
The functionality of the soul (perception and free will) can't be defined in material terms.

[Leonard James]

Misunderstood the meaning of his post? How do you understand the meaning of a post where he wrote that he doubts he "would have the will power or self-control to have stopped [being a Muslim] without the drinking commitment."

Leonard, my advice to you would be check with Blue about how serious he was when he wrote that post and assume the same level of seriousness in my response.

We will have to wait until he explains what he meant.

Oh and maybe when you get your thoughts together you could respond to the posts made by NS, Blue and me about whether your beliefs (that theists are delusional) should be taken any more seriously than a theist's beliefs about God.

Because it's logical to us.

The 2nd part of the question was to ask you to demonstrate that you are lucky and theists are not as lucky as you. Is that what your post meant? I think Blue said that you hadn't claimed this at all. Whereas NS and I both thought that you had made this claim.

My understanding of your claim was that you are lucky for holding your particular belief, whereas you consider theists unlucky for holding their beliefs - even though your respective beliefs makes you and theists happy. Is that correct?

Yes. I consider it good luck to be able to order my own life without shaping it according to somebody else's belief.

[Rhiannon]

Len, why does sharing a belief with others make someone unlucky? The evidence is that shared belief brings companionship, support, community and a sense of wellbeing.

And what about those of us who don't particularly share our beliefs with others, and who don't have a structure to our beliefs/paths?

[Leonard James]

Len, why does sharing a belief with others make someone unlucky?

I didn't say that. I said that atheists were lucky to be able to live their lives free of the dictates of somebody else.

The evidence is that shared belief brings companionship, support, community and a sense of wellbeing.

Agreed. That works for atheists, too.

And what about those of us who don't particularly share our beliefs with others, and who don't have a structure to our beliefs/paths?

That sounds like being lost, to me.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gabriella,

There you go - you get what I mean then. There are lots of people happier not being a Muslim, but they don't all need to commit to drinking to avoid being a Muslim, but you do.

I like drinking shots - it makes me happy. But I managed to stop because being a Muslim made me happier. Does being a Muslim make you happy but drinking make you happier?

You've missed it. I wasn't literally telling you I turn to drink to avoid Islam (good grief!), it was just an analogy in response to your:

"Also, Islam gives me an easy reason to not drink, and I feel happier not drinking but doubt I would have the will power or self-control to have stopped without the religious commitment."

First, whether or not your faith does that says nothing to whether any of its factual claims are true. No doubt any manner of believers in any manner of gods find similar therapeutic benefits from those beliefs.

Second though, while you may find the side-benefit of not drinking to be helpful, that's to ignore that Islam is fundamentally a faith system, and when lots of people share a faith system bad outcomes tend to ensue for reasons we're discussed exhaustively here. I don't suggest that you (or NS's sainted Mum for that matter) are about to put a bomb on a 'plane, but I do suggest that your benign beliefs are still rooted in and give intellectual cover to those who would do those things.

In other words, "but that's my faith" is the same defence at both ends of the spectrum, and if we can't say "so what?" to one, how can we say it to the other?

[Leonard James]

You've missed it. I wasn't literally telling you I turn to drink to avoid Islam (good grief!), it was just an analogy in response to your:

"Also, Islam gives me an easy reason to not drink, and I feel happier not drinking but doubt I would have the will power or self-control to have stopped without the religious commitment."

Which is exactly the way I understood it. Gabriella is singularly unaware at times.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I agree - I find faith very useful. There are many times when I can't be bothered or do not feel like putting myself out to do something specific for someone else but when I view the situation as a theist, the task suddenly feels less burdensome, hence I'm happy.

For example I just had a birthday lunch for my younger daughter at my house yesterday for 30 people. In the middle of the lunch I agreed to hand my house keys over to someone else to have a lunch next weekend in my house for 40 people for my husband's teenage nephew's birthday (his mother - my husband's brother's wife - has cancer). My husband, the kids, my parents and I won't be there for the start of it because my older daughter is in a ballet performance that I have bought tickets for so other family members will have to set it up.

My initial feeling was I can't be bothered to deal with it and have to clear up afterwards as it is 2 weekends in a row but with my theist hat on the whole issue felt less of a burden. So the faith thing works for me in terms of making me feel happier about tasks.   

Also, Islam gives me an easy reason to not drink, and I feel happier not drinking but doubt I would have the will power or self-control to have stopped without the religious commitment.

That's interesting, it makes it sound as if a religion is something that we put on when we wake up in the morning, a suit of clothes we wear because it empowers, strengthens and uplifts us during the day. I can't see that working for me as most religions are founded upon 'objective' truth claims which must at the end of the day be either correct or incorrect but which also cannot be objectively verified and furthermore acceptance of one bunch of such truth claims often implicity carries a denial of all rival truth claims, resulting in disharmony on a now global scale. I see a paradox there, between the empowering personal value of religious practice, and the impossibility of the claims that the practices are founded on.

I agree up to a point. Where we might differ is that I think moral beliefs cannot be objectively verified and the acceptance of one bunch of moral beliefs carries a denial or rejection of all rival moral beliefs, resulting in disharmony on a now global scale. The same can be said about cultural beliefs and political beliefs - leads to disharmony on a global scale. The same can be said about nationalistic beliefs.

Disharmony on a global scale, to me, seems to be part of the human condition. Despite the disharmony I still continue to hold a wide range of beliefs. I don't see the particular problem with religious beliefs. A lot of the violence I see in the world seems to be a fight for control of resources or for political power and influence or a fight against discrimination and oppression, or a fight to preserve a certain way of life or culture, and it seems to be a fight perpetuated by developed countries as well as less developed countries. 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Oh and maybe when you get your thoughts together you could respond to the posts made by NS, Blue and me about whether your beliefs (that theists are delusional) should be taken any more seriously than a theist's beliefs about God.

Because it's logical to us.

So there is no reason to take your belief any more seriously than a theist's, unless you would take a theist's belief seriously because it was logical to them.

The 2nd part of the question was to ask you to demonstrate that you are lucky and theists are not as lucky as you. Is that what your post meant? I think Blue said that you hadn't claimed this at all. Whereas NS and I both thought that you had made this claim.

My understanding of your claim was that you are lucky for holding your particular belief, whereas you consider theists unlucky for holding their beliefs - even though your respective beliefs makes you and theists happy. Is that correct?

Yes. I consider it good luck to be able to order my own life without shaping it according to somebody else's belief.

Ah ok that's fine - you can't demonstrate it, it's just your belief that you are lucky and theists are not.

[Rhiannon]

Len, why does sharing a belief with others make someone unlucky?

I didn't say that. I said that atheists were lucky to be able to live their lives free of the dictates of somebody else.

The evidence is that shared belief brings companionship, support, community and a sense of wellbeing.

Agreed. That works for atheists, too.

And what about those of us who don't particularly share our beliefs with others, and who don't have a structure to our beliefs/paths?

That sounds like being lost, to me.

But Len, you told Ippy that you and he were 'the lucky ones'.

Is there an atheist community comparable to that found in a church?

And why is making your own mind up as an atheist ok but not ok for a theist?

[Leonard James]

I agree up to a point. Where we might differ is that I think moral beliefs cannot be objectively verified and the acceptance of one bunch of moral beliefs carries a denial or rejection of all rival moral beliefs, resulting in disharmony on a now global scale. The same can be said about cultural beliefs and political beliefs - leads to disharmony on a global scale. The same can be said about nationalistic beliefs.

Disharmony on a global scale, to me, seems to be part of the human condition. Despite the disharmony I still continue to hold a wide range of beliefs. I don't see the particular problem with religious beliefs. A lot of the violence I see in the world seems to be a fight for control of resources or for political power and influence or a fight against discrimination and oppression, or a fight to preserve a certain way of life or culture, and it seems to be a fight perpetuated by developed countries as well as less developed countries.

And it will continue to be so until the whole human race unites and acknowledges that everybody has equal rights and responsibilities.

It's going to take a long time, but I am an optimist in this sense. 

[Leonard James]

But Len, you told Ippy that you and he were 'the lucky ones'.

Which is what I believe.

Is there an atheist community comparable to that found in a church?

Of course not, because we don't need one.

And why is making your own mind up as an atheist ok but not ok for a theist?

But theists don't "make up their own minds" about how to live ... they follow the instructions of somebody else.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Gabriella,

There you go - you get what I mean then. There are lots of people happier not being a Muslim, but they don't all need to commit to drinking to avoid being a Muslim, but you do.

I like drinking shots - it makes me happy. But I managed to stop because being a Muslim made me happier. Does being a Muslim make you happy but drinking make you happier?

You've missed it. I wasn't literally telling you I turn to drink to avoid Islam (good grief!), it was just an analogy in response to your:

"Also, Islam gives me an easy reason to not drink, and I feel happier not drinking but doubt I would have the will power or self-control to have stopped without the religious commitment."

An analogy in what way? An analogy is where you compare 2 similar things - so I was saying I literally used Islam to stop drinking and you said you used drinking to stop being a Muslim, but actually you didn't mean that at all. So how is it an analogy - either you meant something similar to me or you didn't - which is it. You seem confused.

First, whether or not your faith does that says nothing to whether any of its factual claims are true. No doubt any manner of believers in any manner of gods find similar therapeutic benefits from those beliefs.

I never linked any of my faith's factual claims to my statement of how Islam helped me stop drinking. 

Second though, while you may find the side-benefit of not drinking to be helpful, that's to ignore that Islam is fundamentally a faith system, and when lots of people share a faith system bad outcomes tend to ensue for reasons we're discussed exhaustively here. I don't suggest that you (or NS's sainted Mum for that matter) are about to put a bomb on a 'plane, but I do suggest that your benign beliefs are still rooted in and give intellectual cover to those who would do those things.

In other words, "but that's my faith" is the same defence at both ends of the spectrum, and if we can't say "so what?" to one, how can we say it to the other?

And how is it different when people hold moral, cultural or political beliefs?

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

You've missed it. I wasn't literally telling you I turn to drink to avoid Islam (good grief!), it was just an analogy in response to your:

"Also, Islam gives me an easy reason to not drink, and I feel happier not drinking but doubt I would have the will power or self-control to have stopped without the religious commitment."

Which is exactly the way I understood it. Gabriella is singularly unaware at times.

Great - you understood the analogy. Perhaps you have the ability to explain it to me, since you seem to think you are aware - how is saying something that is not similar to what I wrote an analogy? I literally used Islam to stop drinking, even though I enjoy drinking whiskey shots, can moderate my drinking so I don't get a hangover, and it doesn't cause me any health problems, which is why will power alone doesn't help me stop.

Over to you or Blue to explain how what Blue wrote is an analogy of how I used Islam to stop drinking.

[Leonard James]

Over to you or Blue to explain how what Blue wrote is an analogy of how I used Islam to stop drinking.

As I am perfectly aware that Blue's ability to explain his posts is far superior to mine, I will leave it to him.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gabriella,

Misunderstood the meaning of his post? How do you understand the meaning of Blue's post? He wrote that he doubts he "would have the will power or self-control to have stopped [being a Muslim] without the drinking commitment."

Leonard, my advice to you would be check with Blue about how serious he was when he wrote that post and assume the same level of seriousness in my response.

“Serious” and “ironic” are not necessarily contradictory Gabs. I hadn’t realised that you’d take the analogy quite so literally, but there you go.

Oh and maybe when you get your thoughts together you could respond to the posts made by NS, Blue and me about whether you meant by your post on P.185 that your belief (that theists are delusional to believe in god based on their personal experience) should be taken any more seriously than a theist's belief in God, and if so on what basis. Can you demonstrate that a theist's personal experience is delusion? Have you seen medical evidence of the delusion based on brain activity or perhaps you have evidence that god does not exist, in which case belief in god would be a demonstrably false belief.

Still missing it. It’s not a question of whether or not Len thinks the beliefs of theists are delusional, but your claim that he thinks that because he hasn’t had the same house call from various deities that some theists interpret themselves to have had.

Len may well have all sorts of good reasons to think the religious to be wrong – delusion, simple mistake, biases of various kinds etc – but he’s not so far as I’m aware claiming that his non-experience of a god is one of them.

It’s a simple enough point isn’t it?

The 2nd part of the question was to ask you to demonstrate that you are lucky and theists are not as lucky as you. Is that what your post meant? I think Blue said that you hadn't claimed this at all. Whereas NS and I both thought that you had made this claim.

No Blue didn’t. Blue confined himself to your claim that Len thought others were delusional because he hadn’t had the same experiences as them – a bit like claiming that Beijing can’t exist because he personally hadn’t experienced it. 

My understanding of your claim was that you are lucky for holding your particular belief, whereas you consider theists unlucky for holding their beliefs - even though your respective beliefs makes you and theists happy. Is that correct?

Well, there does seem to be a lot of bitterness and resentment from many of the (admittedly statistically unrepresentative) theists who post here (not you by the way) but I’m not sure I’d go so far to say how much non-theists are luckier than theists. For my part I’m glad I don’t have the resentment I see in some theists at least, but who wouldn’t be?

[Rhiannon]

But Len, you told Ippy that you and he were 'the lucky ones'.

Which is what I believe.

Is there an atheist community comparable to that found in a church?

Of course not, because we don't need one.

And why is making your own mind up as an atheist ok but not ok for a theist?

But theists don't "make up their own minds" about how to live ... they follow the instructions of somebody else.

Len, you just said you don't believe happy atheists are luckier than happy theists. Which is it, and if you do believe it, why?

It's documented through research that belonging to a church or other faith community can bring great benefits to mental health. It's lacking in both atheism and, to an extent, in paganism.

Can you point me to the Big Book of Pantheitic Paganism? Because I'd love to know whose instruction I'm following.

[torridon]

That's interesting, it makes it sound as if a religion is something that we put on when we wake up in the morning, a suit of clothes we wear because it empowers, strengthens and uplifts us during the day. I can't see that working for me as most religions are founded upon 'objective' truth claims which must at the end of the day be either correct or incorrect but which also cannot be objectively verified and furthermore acceptance of one bunch of such truth claims often implicity carries a denial of all rival truth claims, resulting in disharmony on a now global scale. I see a paradox there, between the empowering personal value of religious practice, and the impossibility of the claims that the practices are founded on.

I agree up to a point. Where we might differ is that I think moral beliefs cannot be objectively verified and the acceptance of one bunch of moral beliefs carries a denial or rejection of all rival moral beliefs, resulting in disharmony on a now global scale. The same can be said about cultural beliefs and political beliefs - leads to disharmony on a global scale. The same can be said about nationalistic beliefs.

Disharmony on a global scale, to me, seems to be part of the human condition. Despite the disharmony I still continue to hold a wide range of beliefs. I don't see the particular problem with religious beliefs. A lot of the violence I see in the world seems to be a fight for control of resources or for political power and influence or a fight against discrimination and oppression, or a fight to preserve a certain way of life or culture, and it seems to be a fight perpetuated by developed countries as well as less developed countries.

I agree with you, moral beliefs are not objectively verifiable, and neither political ones, quite often.  But moral and politcial beliefs are not some given revelation supposedly true for all time and for all people. We argue over and change our moral stance as new findings come to light and we develop deeper insight. The big religions have lost that flexibility to adapt and evolve, being tied to specific writings and revelations, embodying and fixing the moral zeitgesit of the age and culture of their inception.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gabriella,

So there is no reason to take your belief any more seriously than a theist's, unless you would take a theist's belief seriously because it was logical to them.

Not unless you're advocating relativism - that any truth claim is as probable as any other. Faith claims are subjective, personal to the people who hold them until and unless they ever manage to establish a logical path to objective truths. Some might think they have a logical path, but when you examine them they always fail the various tests that logic entails.

When that happens some at least go nuclear and decide that relying on logic is itself a faith position, but that just takes them straight back to relativism.