Searching for GOD...

[Rhiannon]

Rhi,

The fact that some other religions don't involve to varying degrees...?

Read the first five words of what I actually said.

So Jainism is the only exception you were aware of? What about Quakers? Or is their avowed pacifism somehow tribal?

[jakswan]

NS,

Only if you want to make a generalization that is iobviously not correct.

Here's what I actually said:

Most religions that I'm aware of (Jainism apart perhaps) involve to varying degrees...

What's obviously not correct about that?

So how do they have things intrinsic to themselves? Surely all that is that they are intrinsic to people. It's not needed for football supporters to mainly misogymistic but my experience is that they are - is that because football does it? Or rather it's just something intrinsic in us that is manifested in our externalizations

A football support has no policies or dogmas that would make them misogynist. Every KKK member I've heard talk has been a racist, a difference between causation and correlation.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

My belief that I stopped drinking because Islam bans drinking is factually true - Islam bans drinking and that is why I stopped drinking alcohol.

Do you mean your interpretation of Islam bans drinking, this is your position normally isn't it?

I thought you said you don't normally read my posts. I don't see the point of wasting my time responding to someone who comments without actually reading my posts  .

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

Is this true of all the religious? How would one know? How could one know that there are logical arguments to support it? IWhat is evidence in the light of being no method to determine what it is? How did Leonrad for example get evidence that his 'visit' is not true?

So many questions!

Luckily I limit myself to most religions that I'm aware of - though I'd have though that if another religion did have some knock down arguments they'd have come to our attention by now and we'd all be converts.

Logical fallacies both formal and informal have certain structures that, when applied to real world circumstances, enable us to evaluate the probable truthfulness or otherwise of the conclusion to which they lead. All that's being said here is that, when the religious do use logical fallacies, they give us no reason to think that their conclusions are correct.

That's it really - nothing more, nothing less. Presumably Len found the arguments for a god visiting him a while back to be fallacious, so that was enough for him to dismiss the claim.

And now if you'll excuse me folks, I really MUST do some work. I will reply to outstanding questions later if that's ok.

All best.   

[Nearly Sane]

A football support has no policies or dogmas that would make them misogynist. Every KKK member I've heard talk has been a racist, a difference between causation and correlation.

Which, as already established, doesn't apply to religion which is the point being talked about. Further the KKK doesn't cause people to be racist.

[Nearly Sane]

I would restrict my claim of delusional to those gods who are credited with having created the universe and telling us how we should live our lives.

And your method for determining that?

No method, just my personal opinion derived from my own experience.

And your reason for the pejorative?

It's the only word I know that describes people who believe illusions are factual.

To see they are delsuions and are not factual, needs a method. Since you have already admitted you don't have one, your claim is merely that.

[Nearly Sane]

NS,

How do they know what arguments MOSM is presenting?

They don't - for all they or I know she has some knock down argument for an objective god that no-one else has brought to our ears. That's not really the point though - it's just the burden of proof problem for those who do claim objectively true gods.   

The burden of proof that would apply to anyone claiming someone was delusional.

[Leonard James]

To see they are delsuions and are not factual, needs a method. Since you have already admitted you don't have one, your claim is merely that.

It is perfectly justified since there is no "method" to show that the illusions ARE factual.

[Rhiannon]

A football support has no policies or dogmas that would make them misogynist. Every KKK member I've heard talk has been a racist, a difference between causation and correlation.

Which, as already established, doesn't apply to religion which is the point being talked about. Further the KKK doesn't cause people to be racist.

Yes, if people are racist, mysogynistic, homophobic etc then that is down to them. People are responsible for how they treat others; they don't have to fall in with whatever their religion teaches, as plenty of pro-marriage-equality Christians attests.

[Rhiannon]

To see they are delsuions and are not factual, needs a method. Since you have already admitted you don't have one, your claim is merely that.

It is perfectly justified since there is no "method" to show that the illusions ARE factual.

Are those the only options? Factual/delusional?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sane,

Well it is wonderful that old Blue and even older Leonard, have replied to all my delusional posts over the years, I am touched  ( no Gonnagle you are delusional )

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

To see they are delsuions and are not factual, needs a method. Since you have already admitted you don't have one, your claim is merely that.

It is perfectly justified since there is no "method" to show that the illusions ARE factual.

Are those the only options? Factual/delusional?

I dunno! What other alternatives are there?

[Leonard James]

Dear Sane,

Well it is wonderful that old Blue and even older Leonard, have replied to all my delusional posts over the years, I am touched  ( no Gonnagle you are delusional )

Gonnagle.

I'm always here when you need help, Gonners. 

[Rhiannon]

To see they are delsuions and are not factual, needs a method. Since you have already admitted you don't have one, your claim is merely that.

It is perfectly justified since there is no "method" to show that the illusions ARE factual.

Are those the only options? Factual/delusional?

I dunno! What other alternatives are there?

If you don't know then you can't be sure, can you?

[Alan Burns]

I think we underestimate the power of evil and overestimate God's ability to overcome it.  God did overcome it, but He had to go through physical torture, death and resurrection to achieve it - it was not an easy task.

Which sort of undermines the concept of God, really - God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived, yet he can be thwarted by evil? (Which doesn't even begin to get to why evil in the first place)

O.

Evil in an inevitable consequence of free will.  God brought individual beings into existence, not puppets.  If everything was created to be "good" we would not recognise the meaning or quality of being good, because there would be nothing to compare it with.

[floo]

A football support has no policies or dogmas that would make them misogynist. Every KKK member I've heard talk has been a racist, a difference between causation and correlation.

Which, as already established, doesn't apply to religion which is the point being talked about. Further the KKK doesn't cause people to be racist.

Yes, if people are racist, mysogynistic, homophobic etc then that is down to them. People are responsible for how they treat others; they don't have to fall in with whatever their religion teaches, as plenty of pro-marriage-equality Christians attests.

I agree! Too many religious bigots make their faith their excuse for their bigotry, but would probably be bigoted faith or no faith.

[Outrider]

I think we underestimate the power of evil and overestimate God's ability to overcome it.  God did overcome it, but He had to go through physical torture, death and resurrection to achieve it - it was not an easy task.

Which sort of undermines the concept of God, really - God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived, yet he can be thwarted by evil? (Which doesn't even begin to get to why evil in the first place)

O.

Evil in an inevitable consequence of free will.  God brought individual beings into existence, not puppets.  If everything was created to be "good" we would not recognise the meaning or quality of being good, because there would be nothing to compare it with.

Well, whether or not 'evil' is a valid concept, or an inevitable consequence of the free will you've failed to establish elsewhere, the idea that God created a system where evil is possible still puts the onus on God, and still undermines the concept of an omnibenevolent deity - the problem of evil remains, for me, the single most significant argument against the Abrahamic deity.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

To see they are delsuions and are not factual, needs a method. Since you have already admitted you don't have one, your claim is merely that.

It is perfectly justified since there is no "method" to show that the illusions ARE factual.

Apart from the begging the question by the use of the term illusions the reverse is also true. You have made a positive claim that they are illusions/delusions, please show your working for tjus.

[jakswan]

A football support has no policies or dogmas that would make them misogynist. Every KKK member I've heard talk has been a racist, a difference between causation and correlation.

Which, as already established, doesn't apply to religion which is the point being talked about. Further the KKK doesn't cause people to be racist.

I thought you were talking about intrinsic, the KKK is intrinsically racist. The KKK might cause people to be racist.

I'm not sure, but I think Gabriella disagrees as her posts suggests Islam caused her to give up drinking.

[Nearly Sane]

I think we underestimate the power of evil and overestimate God's ability to overcome it.  God did overcome it, but He had to go through physical torture, death and resurrection to achieve it - it was not an easy task.

Which sort of undermines the concept of God, really - God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived, yet he can be thwarted by evil? (Which doesn't even begin to get to why evil in the first place)

O.

Evil in an inevitable consequence of free will.  God brought individual beings into existence, not puppets.  If everything was created to be "good" we would not recognise the meaning or quality of being good, because there would be nothing to compare it with.

So there will be no free will in your heaven? Or will there be evil there?

[Alan Burns]

- the problem of evil remains, for me, the single most significant argument against the Abrahamic deity.

O.

Which aptly illustrates the deadful power of evil.

[Alan Burns]

I think we underestimate the power of evil and overestimate God's ability to overcome it.  God did overcome it, but He had to go through physical torture, death and resurrection to achieve it - it was not an easy task.

Which sort of undermines the concept of God, really - God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived, yet he can be thwarted by evil? (Which doesn't even begin to get to why evil in the first place)

O.

Evil in an inevitable consequence of free will.  God brought individual beings into existence, not puppets.  If everything was created to be "good" we would not recognise the meaning or quality of being good, because there would be nothing to compare it with.

So there will be no free will in your heaven? Or will there be evil there?

We will be free to appreciate just how good it is to be there.

[Nearly Sane]

A football support has no policies or dogmas that would make them misogynist. Every KKK member I've heard talk has been a racist, a difference between causation and correlation.

Which, as already established, doesn't apply to religion which is the point being talked about. Further the KKK doesn't cause people to be racist.

I thought you were talking about intrinsic, the KKK is intrinsically racist. The KKK might cause people to be racist.

I'm not sure, but I think Gabriella disagrees as her posts suggests Islam caused her to give up drinking.

Not sure if Gabriella's point related to this. But how does the KKK cause racism by it's own intrinsic qualities i.e. not those given to it by humans?

[Nearly Sane]

I think we underestimate the power of evil and overestimate God's ability to overcome it.  God did overcome it, but He had to go through physical torture, death and resurrection to achieve it - it was not an easy task.

Which sort of undermines the concept of God, really - God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived, yet he can be thwarted by evil? (Which doesn't even begin to get to why evil in the first place)

O.

Evil in an inevitable consequence of free will.  God brought individual beings into existence, not puppets.  If everything was created to be "good" we would not recognise the meaning or quality of being good, because there would be nothing to compare it with.

So there will be no free will in your heaven? Or will there be evil there?

We will be free to appreciate just how good it is to be there.

So is that there is free will but only if a restricted kind? In which case the existence of evil now is not a necessity. Or is it free will as we currently have? In which case as your post states above evil will happen.

[Outrider]

- the problem of evil remains, for me, the single most significant argument against the Abrahamic deity.

O.

Which aptly illustrates the deadful power of evil.

Or the fundamental incomprehensibility of the Abrahamic canon? Or the oxymoronic nature of the claim of omnibenevolence in a non-optimal world?

O.