Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3899265 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4575 on: October 13, 2015, 03:00:36 PM »
- the problem of evil remains, for me, the single most significant argument against the Abrahamic deity.

O.
Which aptly illustrates the deadful power of evil.

Meaning?
If the presence of evil prevents a person from believing in God, it has succeeded in its aim to delude.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4576 on: October 13, 2015, 03:01:49 PM »
- the problem of evil remains, for me, the single most significant argument against the Abrahamic deity.

O.
Which aptly illustrates the deadful power of evil.

Or the fundamental incomprehensibility of the Abrahamic canon? Or the oxymoronic nature of the claim of omnibenevolence in a non-optimal world?

O.

Though Alan's god seems to be somewhat short of omnipotence, so this is the best it can do with its undefined limited powers, which suddenly come good in heaven in some way.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4577 on: October 13, 2015, 03:04:28 PM »
I think we underestimate the power of evil and overestimate God's ability to overcome it.  God did overcome it, but He had to go through physical torture, death and resurrection to achieve it - it was not an easy task.

Which sort of undermines the concept of God, really - God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived, yet he can be thwarted by evil? (Which doesn't even begin to get to why evil in the first place)

O.
Evil in an inevitable consequence of free will.  God brought individual beings into existence, not puppets.  If everything was created to be "good" we would not recognise the meaning or quality of being good, because there would be nothing to compare it with.

So there will be no free will in your heaven? Or will there be evil there?
We will be free to appreciate just how good it is to be there.
So is that there is free will but only if a restricted kind? In which case the existence of evil now is not a necessity. Or is it free will as we currently have? In which case as your post states above evil will happen.
Let's hope you find out.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4578 on: October 13, 2015, 03:04:59 PM »
- the problem of evil remains, for me, the single most significant argument against the Abrahamic deity.

O.
Which aptly illustrates the deadful power of evil.

Meaning?
If the presence of evil prevents a person from believing in God, it has succeeded in its aim to delude.
So your god is its limited way creates evil, and then can be hidden by it, and then blames the person who couldn't believe because of the evil he created so that he then in his notional heaven with either no free will or no evil, excluded them because of his own limitations(which no longer apply in heaven). Hmmm.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4579 on: October 13, 2015, 03:09:21 PM »
I think we underestimate the power of evil and overestimate God's ability to overcome it.  God did overcome it, but He had to go through physical torture, death and resurrection to achieve it - it was not an easy task.

Which sort of undermines the concept of God, really - God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived, yet he can be thwarted by evil? (Which doesn't even begin to get to why evil in the first place)

O.
Evil in an inevitable consequence of free will.  God brought individual beings into existence, not puppets.  If everything was created to be "good" we would not recognise the meaning or quality of being good, because there would be nothing to compare it with.

So there will be no free will in your heaven? Or will there be evil there?
We will be free to appreciate just how good it is to be there.
So is that there is free will but only if a restricted kind? In which case the existence of evil now is not a necessity. Or is it free will as we currently have? In which case as your post states above evil will happen.
Let's hope you find out.
Not even an attempt to deal with the logical inconsistency of your position. That's really a bit of a pity. Surely if you think you are on this board to try and spread the word, at least either an acknowledgement of the issue or an attempt to deal with it would be something you should do rather than this continued evasion?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4580 on: October 13, 2015, 03:15:17 PM »
I think we underestimate the power of evil and overestimate God's ability to overcome it.  God did overcome it, but He had to go through physical torture, death and resurrection to achieve it - it was not an easy task.

Which sort of undermines the concept of God, really - God is that than which nothing greater can be conceived, yet he can be thwarted by evil? (Which doesn't even begin to get to why evil in the first place)

O.
Evil in an inevitable consequence of free will.  God brought individual beings into existence, not puppets.  If everything was created to be "good" we would not recognise the meaning or quality of being good, because there would be nothing to compare it with.

So there will be no free will in your heaven? Or will there be evil there?
We will be free to appreciate just how good it is to be there.
So is that there is free will but only if a restricted kind? In which case the existence of evil now is not a necessity. Or is it free will as we currently have? In which case as your post states above evil will happen.
Let's hope you find out.
Not even an attempt to deal with the logical inconsistency of your position. That's really a bit of a pity. Surely if you think you are on this board to try and spread the word, at least either an acknowledgement of the issue or an attempt to deal with it would be something you should do rather than this continued evasion?
I was just indicating that no one will know what our true home will be like until we get there, but I do trust that it will be free from evil.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4581 on: October 13, 2015, 03:22:47 PM »
That's nice. You trust it will be free from evil but your statements about having free will allowing evil mean either that that is not correct or your statement about free will is wrong. If you make statements that are logically inconsistent, as you gave done here, and further, taken the position that there is no problem with this, why should anyone listen to any statement you make since your position is that logically consistency is unimportant?

This means that any argument, any statement you make needs no validation, no consistency, no sense from your viewpoint to be judged. Indeed the very concept of evaluating your statements is worthless according to you because there appear to be no standards by which they can be judged.


Effectively you have just said, ignore what I, Alan Burns, say because anything I say has as much validity as saying the opposite

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4582 on: October 13, 2015, 03:24:08 PM »
- the problem of evil remains, for me, the single most significant argument against the Abrahamic deity.

O.
Which aptly illustrates the deadful power of evil.

Meaning?
If the presence of evil prevents a person from believing in God, it has succeeded in its aim to delude.
So your god is its limited way creates evil, and then can be hidden by it, and then blames the person who couldn't believe because of the evil he created so that he then in his notional heaven with either no free will or no evil, excluded them because of his own limitations(which no longer apply in heaven). Hmmm.

Lickle ickle god. Goodness only knows why Thor went out of fashion. 

Now, the God who excludes nobody - he's the man. But not many Christians seem to like him much.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4583 on: October 13, 2015, 03:25:49 PM »
- the problem of evil remains, for me, the single most significant argument against the Abrahamic deity.

O.
Which aptly illustrates the deadful power of evil.

Or the fundamental incomprehensibility of the Abrahamic canon? Or the oxymoronic nature of the claim of omnibenevolence in a non-optimal world?

O.
Of course I believe that God is "all good" as indicated throughout the Christian bible.  The problem of evil has been the subject of much discussion throughout history, and I do not pretend to know all the answers, but there is no reason to assume that the presence of evil can be used to prove that God does not exist.  As the Lord's prayer indicates, Jesus came to deliver us from evil.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4584 on: October 13, 2015, 03:29:25 PM »
A football support has no policies or dogmas that would make them misogynist. Every KKK member I've heard talk has been a racist, a difference between causation and correlation.


Which, as already established, doesn't apply to religion which is the point being talked about. Further the KKK doesn't cause people to be racist.

Yes, if people are racist, mysogynistic, homophobic etc then that is down to them. People are responsible for how they treat others; they don't have to fall in with whatever their religion teaches, as plenty of pro-marriage-equality Christians attests.

I agree! Too many religious bigots make their faith their excuse for their bigotry, but would probably be bigoted faith or no faith.

Don't you realise, you are equally bigoted in your anti-theist stance?  Amazing!
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4585 on: October 13, 2015, 03:32:02 PM »
- the problem of evil remains, for me, the single most significant argument against the Abrahamic deity.

O.
Which aptly illustrates the deadful power of evil.

Meaning?
If the presence of evil prevents a person from believing in God, it has succeeded in its aim to delude.

Mixed up thinking Alan.

On one hand you are claiming that evil is a consequence of free-will; then you are claiming evil as a result of delusion. If we are victims of delusion then our choices are not truly free, they are simply an inevitable symptom of the delusion.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4586 on: October 13, 2015, 03:43:34 PM »
Of course I believe that God is "all good" as indicated throughout the Christian bible...

If you could jettison the OT you might stand a chance of making a plausible case for that. Unfortunately numerous passages in the OT portray God as a homicidal ultra violent monster, and ever since Marcion lost the argument Christendom has been stuck with that, unable to fully distance itself, even though it would prefer a wholesome loving God.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4587 on: October 13, 2015, 03:45:01 PM »
Of course I believe that God is "all good" as indicated throughout the Christian bible...

If you could jettison the OT you might stand a chance of making a plausible case for that. Unfortunately numerous passages in the OT portray God as a homicidal ultra violent monster, and ever since Marcion lost the argument Christendom has been stuck with that, unable to distance itself with a wholesome loving God.

Marcion has not lost the argument.  And more would appreciate his take if they knew about his beliefs.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4588 on: October 13, 2015, 03:52:43 PM »
Of course I believe that God is "all good" as indicated throughout the Christian bible...

If you could jettison the OT you might stand a chance of making a plausible case for that. Unfortunately numerous passages in the OT portray God as a homicidal ultra violent monster, and ever since Marcion lost the argument Christendom has been stuck with that, unable to distance itself with a wholesome loving God.

Marcion has not lost the argument.  And more would appreciate his take if they knew about his beliefs.

Including the one about the demiurge?

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4589 on: October 13, 2015, 03:55:17 PM »

On one hand you are claiming that evil is a consequence of free-will; then you are claiming evil as a result of delusion. If we are victims of delusion then our choices are not truly free, they are simply an inevitable symptom of the delusion.
Evil is not a result of delusion - it is the cause of delusion.  The delusion is created by the will of one who is evil.  But we are free to choose to put our trust in one who can deliver us from evil.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4590 on: October 13, 2015, 04:00:57 PM »
Of course I believe that God is "all good" as indicated throughout the Christian bible...

If you could jettison the OT you might stand a chance of making a plausible case for that. Unfortunately numerous passages in the OT portray God as a homicidal ultra violent monster, and ever since Marcion lost the argument Christendom has been stuck with that, unable to distance itself with a wholesome loving God.

Marcion has not lost the argument.  And more would appreciate his take if they knew about his beliefs.

Including the one about the demiurge?

No, I question that aspect of his thinking:  I am more in tune with his views on the OT generally, and its depiction of God.
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4591 on: October 13, 2015, 04:06:13 PM »
Of course I believe that God is "all good" as indicated throughout the Christian bible...

If you could jettison the OT you might stand a chance of making a plausible case for that. Unfortunately numerous passages in the OT portray God as a homicidal ultra violent monster, and ever since Marcion lost the argument Christendom has been stuck with that, unable to distance itself with a wholesome loving God.

Marcion has not lost the argument.  And more would appreciate his take if they knew about his beliefs.

Including the one about the demiurge?
Marcion indicated that the demiurge was the "earth god" as opposed to the Good God in heaven, and non believers would become slaves of the demiurge.  So this fits in with the Christian concept if we assume that the "earth god" is the devil.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4592 on: October 13, 2015, 04:11:49 PM »
Of course I believe that God is "all good" as indicated throughout the Christian bible...

If you could jettison the OT you might stand a chance of making a plausible case for that. Unfortunately numerous passages in the OT portray God as a homicidal ultra violent monster, and ever since Marcion lost the argument Christendom has been stuck with that, unable to distance itself with a wholesome loving God.

Marcion has not lost the argument.  And more would appreciate his take if they knew about his beliefs.

Yes he did.  The early church identified him as a heretic and core mainstream church teaching on that issue has not changed significantly since Nicea.

BashfulAnthony

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4593 on: October 13, 2015, 04:19:21 PM »
Of course I believe that God is "all good" as indicated throughout the Christian bible...

If you could jettison the OT you might stand a chance of making a plausible case for that. Unfortunately numerous passages in the OT portray God as a homicidal ultra violent monster, and ever since Marcion lost the argument Christendom has been stuck with that, unable to distance itself with a wholesome loving God.

Marcion has not lost the argument.  And more would appreciate his take if they knew about his beliefs.

Yes he did.  The early church identified him as a heretic and core mainstream church teaching on that issue has not changed significantly since Nicea.

The early church, or the church now, speaks for only some Christians, not all; just as it doesn't speak for all of them over same-sex marriage, homosexuality generally, women bishops  (until recently), and so on.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 04:23:16 PM by BashfulAnthony »
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4594 on: October 13, 2015, 05:06:23 PM »

On one hand you are claiming that evil is a consequence of free-will; then you are claiming evil as a result of delusion. If we are victims of delusion then our choices are not truly free, they are simply an inevitable symptom of the delusion.
Evil is not a result of delusion - it is the cause of delusion.  The delusion is created by the will of one who is evil.  But we are free to choose to put our trust in one who can deliver us from evil.

But we are not free if we are deluded. Delusion blinds us to truth, robbing us of our freedom. A blind choice is not a free choice.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4595 on: October 13, 2015, 05:22:40 PM »
Of course I believe that God is "all good" as indicated throughout the Christian bible...

If you could jettison the OT you might stand a chance of making a plausible case for that. Unfortunately numerous passages in the OT portray God as a homicidal ultra violent monster, and ever since Marcion lost the argument Christendom has been stuck with that, unable to distance itself with a wholesome loving God.

Marcion has not lost the argument.  And more would appreciate his take if they knew about his beliefs.

Including the one about the demiurge?
Marcion indicated that the demiurge was the "earth god" as opposed to the Good God in heaven, and non believers would become slaves of the demiurge.  So this fits in with the Christian concept if we assume that the "earth god" is the devil.

That's a pretty big 'if'. Actually it fits far more with the concept of matter as base. It's a form of Gnosticism.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4596 on: October 13, 2015, 06:22:41 PM »

On one hand you are claiming that evil is a consequence of free-will; then you are claiming evil as a result of delusion. If we are victims of delusion then our choices are not truly free, they are simply an inevitable symptom of the delusion.
Evil is not a result of delusion - it is the cause of delusion.  The delusion is created by the will of one who is evil.  But we are free to choose to put our trust in one who can deliver us from evil.

But we are not free if we are deluded. Delusion blinds us to truth, robbing us of our freedom. A blind choice is not a free choice.
I totally agree that delusion blinds us to truth and robs us of our freedom.

Choosing to put your trust in the word of God as revealed in the Christian bible is not exactly a blind choice.  We have been given enough to be able to see through the deception, but many choose to ignore what God has done for us.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4597 on: October 13, 2015, 06:34:43 PM »
Of course I believe that God is "all good" as indicated throughout the Christian bible...

If you could jettison the OT you might stand a chance of making a plausible case for that. Unfortunately numerous passages in the OT portray God as a homicidal ultra violent monster, and ever since Marcion lost the argument Christendom has been stuck with that, unable to fully distance itself, even though it would prefer a wholesome loving God.

Marcion, though offering some interesting ideas, 'lost the argument' for very good reasons. His own version of the New Testament, though perhaps the first version we have of a NT 'canon', is also a very obvious early version of cherry-picking to suit what you want to believe about your God. In the first instance, it's all very well to decide which actual books should be represented in your collection, but when you start selecting only the 'nice' passages in the only gospel of which you really approve (in Marcion's case, Luke), then you've pretty well entered the area of making things up as you go along.
Marcion wasn't able to benefit from the methods of modern critical scholarship, which are able to provide reasonable guidelines for what Jesus may or may not have said, in a purely objective way. He was instead guided by a degree of gut-feeling and personal bias. Jesus sometimes appears as being a totally forgiving, loving chap, and suggests that we should turn the other cheek, and walk two miles with the bloke who asks us to walk just one mile with him etc. etc. There is of course another aspect to Jesus depicted in the NT, which suggest he thought God was in some ways as bad as he appears in the early part of the OT, and his own character in some places seems to reflect this violent, judgmental God. You can say "well, he can't have really said both things, because that's contradictory". And the evangelicals and the fundamentalists are keen to point out how these seeming contradictions can be reconciled. It is certainly difficult to reconcile them, and I see no reason to believe that all the sayings and deeds of Jesus in the NT are accurate reportage of the historical character.

However, Marcion's other great failing was his either/or attitude to the Old Testament. In much of the early part of the Pentateuch, God is portrayed as an absolute monster, however 'metaphorically' you read the text. But the OT, too is a huge compendium of differing ideas about God, and about what God supposedly requires of human beings. I refuse to accept that the God of Ecclesiastes is a 'monster' - in this practically 'Buddhist' text, God scarcely gets a look-in - he seems quite nebulous and conspicuous by his absence (In the book of Esther, of course, God is not mentioned at all). All three parts of Isaiah* depict God in different ways, but in general he seems much improved on the nasty war-monger who rampages through the Book of Joshua, or the vile homicidal sadist in Judges who still seems to be keen on human sacrifice.

By the time we get to the Book of Micah, God is almost altogether a reformed character, (apart from a few rumblings) and seems to me a rather superior to the God of Jesus, if you take all the gospels into consideration without 'cherry-picking'.

Marcion's work "The Antitheses" (of which we only know certain quoted passages) in which he outlines the differences between the two Testaments, seems to be a case of selective quotation of the most blatant and deceptive kind.

*Many scholars believe 'Isaiah' had a three-fold authorship.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 06:40:04 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4598 on: October 13, 2015, 06:37:26 PM »

On one hand you are claiming that evil is a consequence of free-will; then you are claiming evil as a result of delusion. If we are victims of delusion then our choices are not truly free, they are simply an inevitable symptom of the delusion.
Evil is not a result of delusion - it is the cause of delusion.  The delusion is created by the will of one who is evil.  But we are free to choose to put our trust in one who can deliver us from evil.

But we are not free if we are deluded. Delusion blinds us to truth, robbing us of our freedom. A blind choice is not a free choice.
I totally agree that delusion blinds us to truth and robs us of our freedom.

Choosing to put your trust in the word of God as revealed in the Christian bible is not exactly a blind choice.  We have been given enough to be able to see through the deception, but many choose to ignore what God has done for us.
You just said some evil thing was hiding it? Can you make up your mind?

Are you now saying I am deliberately ignoring something? Because in my opinion I am not. Why do you think you can (a) say you know about what I am doing and (b) accuse me of lying about it, which is what you are doing by the statement above?

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4599 on: October 13, 2015, 07:18:42 PM »
Of course I believe that God is "all good" as indicated throughout the Christian bible...

If you could jettison the OT you might stand a chance of making a plausible case for that. Unfortunately numerous passages in the OT portray God as a homicidal ultra violent monster, and ever since Marcion lost the argument Christendom has been stuck with that, unable to fully distance itself, even though it would prefer a wholesome loving God.

Marcion, though offering some interesting ideas, 'lost the argument' for very good reasons. His own version of the New Testament, though perhaps the first version we have of a NT 'canon', is also a very obvious early version of cherry-picking to suit what you want to believe about your God. In the first instance, it's all very well to decide which actual books should be represented in your collection, but when you start selecting only the 'nice' passages in the only gospel of which you really approve (in Marcion's case, Luke), then you've pretty well entered the area of making things up as you go along.
Marcion wasn't able to benefit from the methods of modern critical scholarship, which are able to provide reasonable guidelines for what Jesus may or may not have said, in a purely objective way. He was instead guided by a degree of gut-feeling and personal bias. Jesus sometimes appears as being a totally forgiving, loving chap, and suggests that we should turn the other cheek, and walk two miles with the bloke who asks us to walk just one mile with him etc. etc. There is of course another aspect to Jesus depicted in the NT, which suggest he thought God was in some ways as bad as he appears in the early part of the OT, and his own character in some places seems to reflect this violent, judgmental God. You can say "well, he can't have really said both things, because that's contradictory". And the evangelicals and the fundamentalists are keen to point out how these seeming contradictions can be reconciled. It is certainly difficult to reconcile them, and I see no reason to believe that all the sayings and deeds of Jesus in the NT are accurate reportage of the historical character.

However, Marcion's other great failing was his either/or attitude to the Old Testament. In much of the early part of the Pentateuch, God is portrayed as an absolute monster, however 'metaphorically' you read the text. But the OT, too is a huge compendium of differing ideas about God, and about what God supposedly requires of human beings. I refuse to accept that the God of Ecclesiastes is a 'monster' - in this practically 'Buddhist' text, God scarcely gets a look-in - he seems quite nebulous and conspicuous by his absence (In the book of Esther, of course, God is not mentioned at all). All three parts of Isaiah* depict God in different ways, but in general he seems much improved on the nasty war-monger who rampages through the Book of Joshua, or the vile homicidal sadist in Judges who still seems to be keen on human sacrifice.

By the time we get to the Book of Micah, God is almost altogether a reformed character, (apart from a few rumblings) and seems to me a rather superior to the God of Jesus, if you take all the gospels into consideration without 'cherry-picking'.

Marcion's work "The Antitheses" (of which we only know certain quoted passages) in which he outlines the differences between the two Testaments, seems to be a case of selective quotation of the most blatant and deceptive kind.

*Many scholars believe 'Isaiah' had a three-fold authorship.

Wow, Dicky, thank you! You are yet another guy who seems to know a good deal more about Christianity than most others here.