Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

It's odd to make an argument for X existing, as normally existence is obvious.

Existence is only obvious because we have been given the amazing gift of awareness which we take so much for granted, but for which there is no natural explanation.

I see no evidence that awareness is a 'gift'.  It just is.

[Alan Burns]

I don't see any compelling evidence of the hand of god in the diversity of life.  Neither do the scientists who study these things for a living.  To me, nature looks completely natural. I don't understand why a god would use natural evolutionary mechanisms to create Man (for instance), a mechanism which depends on trillions upon trillions of essentially random occurrences to provide the source organic novelty out of which successful life designs can then emerge through competition and refinement.  What would be the point in having such awesome supernatural powers but then restrict yourself to using natural means, apart from unless you wanted to hide your evidence trail ? No, a god would just design things from scratch how he wanted them. If you can see the hand of god at work in the natural world, then it must be a product of your faith acting like coloured spectacles through which you see things. Take off the faith specs, then you can start to see things as they are, without affectation, let the evidence speak and listen to what it says.

But do you not see the startling contrast between the abundant life on this planet and the hostile nature of the observed universe outside?  What we call nature on this planet does not seem natural in comparison to other planets in our vicinity.  I believe that God's powers involve interacting with the nature of our universe, not overriding it, just as humans interact using their powers of free will to bring about human creations.

The very fact that the universe is overwhelmingly hostile to life is a evidence against creation by a theist god.  We persist here in this place and time, against all odds, life is very much the exception.  If I were planning to have a baby I woud not be pulling out all the stops to augur against my baby's survival, I would do the opposite. Likewise, a god wishing to create sentient life would set conditions in favour of life, not against it.

You seem to be very confident in assuming what God can do.  Perhaps it took a whole universe of stars and planets to produce one with the right conditions for life to be nurtured.  I do not profess to know why things are as they are, but I believe God is intimately involved with life as we know it.

[wigginhall]

Why would it take an omnipotent being a whole succession of galaxies, stars, planets, and so on, to produce life?  Why could he not just go, let there be life? 

[wigginhall]

..... but isn't it amazing that cats have holes in their fur... right where their eyes are!

There you are, God's not an idiot.  Once he made the eyes, he had the nous to realize that port-holes would be required, so he just went, let there be port-holes, and poof, there they were.   Then holes for the sound to get in, and holes to let wee out, and so on, and he even made some of the holes all slurpy and slushy, so it felt nice.   Eat your heart out, Brunel. 

[Outrider]

Every time a cell divides or is replaced there is the opportunity for mutation. That means just within one person's body in one life there are billions upon billions of opportunities.

But it is not mutations in the whole body which get reproduced - it is only mutations in the DNA molecule (defined at birth) which get passed on.

Not quite - that's the mechanism by which they get passed on to a new organism, but there are mechanisms for mutations (in DNA, yes, but not in the reproductive cells) to get into the reproductive cells.

That means that carcinogens and taratogens as well as radiation sources and plan old random mutation and variation can contribute within complex organisms.

Of course, for bacteria and the like cell division is their reproduction, so any DNA change is automatically communicated to following generations - that's how antibiotic resistant bacteria spread as quickly as they do.

O.

[Outrider]

But do you not see the startling contrast between the abundant life on this planet and the hostile nature of the observed universe outside?

For us, yes, as humans, but for life? There is almost certainly liquid water on Europa, one of Jupiter's moons, as well as a few candidates from Saturn's satellites.

Not forgetting, of course, that part of the habitability of the Earth is from the effects of earlier life-forms pumping oxygen into the atmosphere - this planet is suitable for the life that evolved from earlier lifeforms because of effects of those earlier lifeforms on the environment.

What we call nature on this planet does not seem natural in comparison to other planets in our vicinity.

Right, how frequent is life supposed to be? The relative lack of life - as we understand it, at least - is only an issue if you think that the universe is somehow intended to be life-bearing. If it's just a sequence of reactions to previous conditions, without goal or intent, the amount of life is neither high nor low, it simply is.

I believe that God's powers involve interacting with the nature of our universe, not overriding it, just as humans interact using their powers of free will to bring about human creations.

You are, I suspect, in the minority - the majority of those who believe in the Judao-Christian God seem to think that it created our universe, and a considerable portion of them think it was done for our benefit. In light of that, your pointing out that inhospitability of the bulk of it for human life seems pertinent.

O.

[Alan Burns]

How would you react if it was discovered that there were other earth like planets out there supporting intelligent life forms, none of whom believe in your version of the deity?

The only way life can come into existence is through God

[Alan Burns]

There is almost certainly liquid water on Europa, one of Jupiter's moons, as well as a few candidates from Saturn's satellites.

You need a lot more than the right ingredients to bring about the creation of life.  I think the assumption that any place where liquid water exists has the potential for incorporating life is highly optimistic.  Life will only exist where God wants it to exist.

[Outrider]

How would you react if it was discovered that there were other earth like planets out there supporting intelligent life forms, none of whom believe in your version of the deity?

The only way life can come into existence is through God

We know there is life. We have no proof of God. Your assertion has no merit.

O.

[Outrider]

There is almost certainly liquid water on Europa, one of Jupiter's moons, as well as a few candidates from Saturn's satellites.

You need a lot more than the right ingredients to bring about the creation of life.

That's a possibility, but we don't know for sure exactly what's required. Do you have a reason for thinking that something more is required, is this just another assertion to fit your preconception of a deity being necessary?

I think the assumption that any place where liquid water exists has the potential for incorporating life is highly optimistic.

Really? Given that the only forms of life we are aware of all require liquid water in their life-cycle somewhere, it doesn't seem unreasonable. Of course, another form of life - i.e. one that isn't of terrestrial origin - would give us more data, but certainly it seems reasonable to presume that liquid water has the POTENTIAL for life.

Life will only exist where God wants it to exist.

Strange - I'm of the opinion that the idea of gods will only exist where life wants it to...

O.

[torridon]

How would you react if it was discovered that there were other earth like planets out there supporting intelligent life forms, none of whom believe in your version of the deity?

The only way life can come into existence is through God

 * * Assertion Alert * *

No evidence for that I'm afraid

[bluehillside Retd.]

My apologies to anyone expecting a reply from me here. For some unaccountable reason any device I use from home to access this site just returns a '403 error' message, but away from home I can access it ok on my 'phone.

Any suggestions to fix it gratefully received though.

Ta

[Alan Burns]

How would you react if it was discovered that there were other earth like planets out there supporting intelligent life forms, none of whom believe in your version of the deity?

The only way life can come into existence is through God

 * * Assertion Alert * *

No evidence for that I'm afraid

Random forces are demonstrably destructive, not creative.  To bring life into existence you need the hand of the Creator.

[BeRational]

How would you react if it was discovered that there were other earth like planets out there supporting intelligent life forms, none of whom believe in your version of the deity?

The only way life can come into existence is through God

 * * Assertion Alert * *

No evidence for that I'm afraid

Random forces are demonstrably destructive, not creative.  To bring life into existence you need the hand of the Creator.

So your creator also needed a creator.

Who created the creator?

[SusanDoris]

My apologies to anyone expecting a reply from me here. For some unaccountable reason any device I use from home to access this site just returns a '403 error' message, but away from home I can access it ok on my 'phone.

Any suggestions to fix it gratefully received though.

Ta

Almost every other time, when I go to IE > favourites > R&E, it will show the 'can't find it' message. I go to another  site, take a look at what's there, then go back to the R&E link and it comes up, no problem.This is probably no help at all, but I have no tech info, I'm afraid!

[torridon]

How would you react if it was discovered that there were other earth like planets out there supporting intelligent life forms, none of whom believe in your version of the deity?

The only way life can come into existence is through God

 * * Assertion Alert * *

No evidence for that I'm afraid

Random forces are demonstrably destructive, not creative.  To bring life into existence you need the hand of the Creator.

Eerm ... here we go again ...

* * Assertion Alert * *

No evidence for that I'm afraid.

You clearly haven't got the hang of this evidence thing yet Alan. We can't just go round looking for gaps in our knowledge and stuffing your creator in there. We might not yet know all the detail about how to get from complex carbon chemistry to simple biology, but people working in that field see no show stoppers requiring magic intervention; there are likely innumerable pathways, we just don't know the detail and we are currently filling the detail in. Likewise,  we might not fully understand how we get from prokaryote to eukaryote, but imagining there must be some invisible mythic being of undescribed provenance with special powers busy bridging those gaps doesn't really help; not unless you are disinterested in the real answers, that is.  Sometimes we need to still our minds so we can discern the quiet voice of evidence; be not so quick to bury the possibility of real understanding under a landslide of our personal beliefs and prejudices.  Ancient peoples couldn't understand how the Sun moved across the sky, so they invented a story that is was pulled across the sky by a horse drawn team of angels. Nonesense, of course, they had no idea about how gravity as described by Newton explains planetary motion. The moral to learn from this, is that pushing myth and magic into gaps in knowledge does us no favours in the long run, it only works against and slows our growing collective understanding. 

[Rhiannon]

My apologies to anyone expecting a reply from me here. For some unaccountable reason any device I use from home to access this site just returns a '403 error' message, but away from home I can access it ok on my 'phone.

Any suggestions to fix it gratefully received though.

Ta

Almost every other time, when I go to IE > favourites > R&E, it will show the 'can't find it' message. I go to another  site, take a look at what's there, then go back to the R&E link and it comes up, no problem.This is probably no help at all, but I have no tech info, I'm afraid!

This the blessed random forum glitch, created to drive posters insane. It usually rights itself after a bit.

[floo]

How would you react if it was discovered that there were other earth like planets out there supporting intelligent life forms, none of whom believe in your version of the deity?

The only way life can come into existence is through God

 * * Assertion Alert * *

No evidence for that I'm afraid

Random forces are demonstrably destructive, not creative.  To bring life into existence you need the hand of the Creator.

So your creator also needed a creator.

Who created the creator?

You never get an answer to that one!

[jjohnjil]

How would you react if it was discovered that there were other earth like planets out there supporting intelligent life forms, none of whom believe in your version of the deity?

The only way life can come into existence is through God

 * * Assertion Alert * *

No evidence for that I'm afraid

Random forces are demonstrably destructive, not creative.  To bring life into existence you need the hand of the Creator.

Eerm ... here we go again ...

* * Assertion Alert * *

No evidence for that I'm afraid.

You clearly haven't got the hang of this evidence thing yet Alan. We can't just go round looking for gaps in our knowledge and stuffing your creator in there. We might not yet know all the detail about how to get from complex carbon chemistry to simple biology, but people working in that field see no show stoppers requiring magic intervention; there are likely innumerable pathways, we just don't know the detail and we are currently filling the detail in. Likewise,  we might not fully understand how we get from prokaryote to eukaryote, but imagining there must be some invisible mythic being of undescribed provenance with special powers busy bridging those gaps doesn't really help; not unless you are disinterested in the real answers, that is.  Sometimes we need to still our minds so we can discern the quiet voice of evidence; be not so quick to bury the possibility of real understanding under a landslide of our personal beliefs and prejudices.  Ancient peoples couldn't understand how the Sun moved across the sky, so they invented a story that is was pulled across the sky by a horse drawn team of angels. Nonesense, of course, they had no idea about how gravity as described by Newton explains planetary motion. The moral to learn from this, is that pushing myth and magic into gaps in knowledge does us no favours in the long run, it only works against and slows our growing collective understanding.

Torridon

You are not telling Alan anything he doesn't really know.  He is a very intelligent guy and explaining facts about how the Universe works is a complete waste of time and an insult to that intelligence.

What you have to realise is AB has an imaginary gun pointing at his head and he is dead scared of upsetting the crazy killer with his finger on the trigger!  To Al, crediting this maniac with everything good and exonerating him from all things bad is the only way he'll cheat the death he dreads and send him off to live forever in the heavenly equivalent of the Ritz! 

[Outrider]

How would you react if it was discovered that there were other earth like planets out there supporting intelligent life forms, none of whom believe in your version of the deity?

The only way life can come into existence is through God

 * * Assertion Alert * *

No evidence for that I'm afraid

Random forces are demonstrably destructive, not creative.  To bring life into existence you need the hand of the Creator.

He asserted...

Please explain sandbanks - they are an accumulation of randomly deposited particles in a stream. Or cloud formations. Or weather patterns.

O.

[Alan Burns]

No evidence for that I'm afraid.

You clearly haven't got the hang of this evidence thing yet Alan. We can't just go round looking for gaps in our knowledge and stuffing your creator in there. We might not yet know all the detail about how to get from complex carbon chemistry to simple biology, but people working in that field see no show stoppers requiring magic intervention; there are likely innumerable pathways, we just don't know the detail and we are currently filling the detail in. Likewise,  we might not fully understand how we get from prokaryote to eukaryote, but imagining there must be some invisible mythic being of undescribed provenance with special powers busy bridging those gaps doesn't really help; not unless you are disinterested in the real answers, that is.  Sometimes we need to still our minds so we can discern the quiet voice of evidence; be not so quick to bury the possibility of real understanding under a landslide of our personal beliefs and prejudices.  Ancient peoples couldn't understand how the Sun moved across the sky, so they invented a story that is was pulled across the sky by a horse drawn team of angels. Nonesense, of course, they had no idea about how gravity as described by Newton explains planetary motion. The moral to learn from this, is that pushing myth and magic into gaps in knowledge does us no favours in the long run, it only works against and slows our growing collective understanding.

I am sure that scientists will come up with a sequence of naturally occuring events which can produce a simple self replicating cell.  My certainty of God's interaction is based upon the improbability of these events being generated in the correct sequence and timing by unguided forces to produce the specific complexity in a living cell.   Looking at an equally improbable scenario, it is possible that I can win the National Lottery seventeen times in succession, but if I did I suspect that someone would come to the conclusion that my winning streak was not generated by totally random selections.

[Alan Burns]

What you have to realise is AB has an imaginary gun pointing at his head and he is dead scared of upsetting the crazy killer with his finger on the trigger!  To Al, crediting this maniac with everything good and exonerating him from all things bad is the only way he'll cheat the death he dreads and send him off to live forever in the heavenly equivalent of the Ritz!

Sadly you do not seem to have discovered God's love.

[Alan Burns]

Sometimes we need to still our minds so we can discern the quiet voice of evidence;

I would love to rewrite this line thus:
Sometimes we need to still our minds so we can discern the quiet voice of God.

It is when I am in peaceful silence with no sensory distractions that I feel God's loving presence.

[Outrider]

I am sure that scientists will come up with a sequence of naturally occuring events which can produce a simple self replicating cell.

Certain is perhaps a little strong, but I think it's likely

My certainty of God's interaction is based upon the improbability of these events being generated in the correct sequence and timing by unguided forces to produce the specific complexity in a living cell.

Which conveniently ignores the number of planets on which these precursors have existed, and therefore the number of chances for this to successfully happen. It also conveniently ignores the fact that we don't know if there's a specific timing required.

Most importantly, though, it completely glosses over the fact that it's orders of magnitude more improbable that a being capable of designing a universe should spontaneously emerge than a sequence of relatively likely incidents should happen, potentially amongst an infinite number of opportunities.

Looking at an equally improbable scenario, it is possible that I can win the National Lottery seventeen times in succession, but if I did I suspect that someone would come to the conclusion that my winning streak was not generated by totally random selections.

However, if we have billions upon billions of galaxies with billions upon billions of planets (which we do), all of which were running the lottery, one of them having a 17 times winner after billions of years wouldn't be that much of a surprise. A god still would.

O.

[Alan Burns]

Please explain sandbanks - they are an accumulation of randomly deposited particles in a stream. Or cloud formations. Or weather patterns.

O.

These examples do not contain the specific complexity needed for a self replicating cell.

Looking inside a single living cell with an electron microscope shows a fascinating arrangement of biological machinery to handle growth, reproduction, food processing, waste disposal and both internal and external communications.