Searching for GOD...

[Outrider]

I find it arrogant to be told by Christians that I'd be a better person if I had Jesus as my saviour. Or that I'd still be a shit one, but a saved shit one.

Being a better person is not the main aim of Christianity - it is just an attribute you aquire when you accept Jesus as your saviour.

The evidence of many, many Christians suggests that this isn't actually the case - I cite the Westboro' Baptists and the Ku Klux Klan as examples.

O.

[Outrider]

I would never be so arrogant as to say God got it wrong.  I humbly accept that I do not have the mind of God.  There are bound to be some things beyond our understanding.

How is it arrogant to say 'God got it wrong' on the evidence that it's wrong (but in the absence of evidence of gods), yet it's not arrogant to tell the entirety of the science community 'you're wrong' when they can cite better examples from elsewhere in nature?

O.

[Outrider]

But there are not an infinite number of opportunities.

We do not know if there is a limit to the number of universes out there. We do not know, I'd agree, that there are an infinite number of opportunities, but we equally don't know that there aren't.

We live in a finite universe with an estimated 10⁸¹ atomic particles, and a finite age of approximately 4.32 X 10¹⁷ seconds.  These numbers pale into insignificance when compared to the figure of 10^40,000 which sir Fred Hoyle calculated is the probability of amino acids coming together in the right combination to form a living cell.

Putting aside Hoyle's lack of any formal training in molecular biology (he was an astronomer and mathematician), and therefore his lack of understanding of how amino acids are a) related and b) have a tendency to increase the likelihood of formation around them, there are purely mathematical errors.

Hoyle's account presumes independent factors (failing to appreciate that breakdown products from amino acids are pre-cursors to other amino acids), presumes a random base state (it fails to appreciate that the conditions under which the reactions occur is not random distrubution, but clustered by chemical and physical effects), and Hoyle only checks for the specific form of life that actually emerged, discounting possible life-mechanisms which did not emerge.

Quite apart from the biochemical failings that he could understandably be unaware of, his maths is flawed.

O.

There are

[Alan Burns]

But there are not an infinite number of opportunities.  We live in a finite universe with an estimated 10⁸¹ atomic particles, and a finite age of approximately 4.32 X 10¹⁷ seconds.  These numbers pale into insignificance when compared to the figure of 10^40,000 which sir Fred Hoyle calculated is the probability of amino acids coming together in the right combination to form a living cell.

Oh, come on Mr Burns, are you really prepared to go back 50 years to find some figures to support your view.  Things have moved far along since then, look instead at the work being done in biogenesis now.  Hoyle might have been a brilliant man but he did get some things very very wrong, blinded to some extent by his own hubris and stubbornness.

I referred to Hoyle's calculation because to my knowledge, though there has been criticism of Hoyle's work, no one has come up with an alternative figure for this probability.

[Alan Burns]

I find it arrogant to be told by Christians that I'd be a better person if I had Jesus as my saviour. Or that I'd still be a shit one, but a saved shit one.

Being a better person is not the main aim of Christianity - it is just an attribute you aquire when you accept Jesus as your saviour.

So Christians are better people than non-believers?

No - they (each person) are just better than they would have been without Christianity

[Rhiannon]

I find it arrogant to be told by Christians that I'd be a better person if I had Jesus as my saviour. Or that I'd still be a shit one, but a saved shit one.

Being a better person is not the main aim of Christianity - it is just an attribute you aquire when you accept Jesus as your saviour.

So Christians are better people than non-believers?

No - they (each person) are just better than they would have been without Christianity

So non-believers can be better people without the need for Jesus but Christians need Jesus in order to do/be the same? I don't think that's fair on your fellow believers.

[Outrider]

But there are not an infinite number of opportunities.  We live in a finite universe with an estimated 10⁸¹ atomic particles, and a finite age of approximately 4.32 X 10¹⁷ seconds.  These numbers pale into insignificance when compared to the figure of 10^40,000 which sir Fred Hoyle calculated is the probability of amino acids coming together in the right combination to form a living cell.

Oh, come on Mr Burns, are you really prepared to go back 50 years to find some figures to support your view.  Things have moved far along since then, look instead at the work being done in biogenesis now.  Hoyle might have been a brilliant man but he did get some things very very wrong, blinded to some extent by his own hubris and stubbornness.

I referred to Hoyle's calculation because to my knowledge, though there has been criticism of Hoyle's work, no one has come up with an alternative figure for this probability.

In the main part, that's because we don't have enough information on the individual elements and components of the life-forms that we do know of, not to mention the fact that we have no capacity to measure the likelihood of all the other forms of life that could have emerged if we hadn't.

O.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sane,

just call it I don't Know - gods are explanations for questions we don't know even make sense unless we assume we are special

Assume we are special, now I think that needs exploring.

Where to start.

In the Bible, Genesis, we are told we have Dominion, humans rule OK.

Is it fair  to assume that is true, do we have that power, good or bad.

I am not asking if we have misused that power ( if we have it ) do we actually have dominion over every living beast.

Gonnagle.

[Outrider]

Dear Sane,

just call it I don't Know - gods are explanations for questions we don't know even make sense unless we assume we are special

Assume we are special, now I think that needs exploring.

Where to start.

In the Bible, Genesis, we are told we have Dominion, humans rule OK.

Is it fair  to assume that is true, do we have that power, good or bad.

I am not asking if we have misused that power ( if we have it ) do we actually have dominion over every living beast.

Gonnagle.

Do we? Functionally, yes. What would make us special, though, is if that was how it was supposed to be, if we had been made for it or had somehow earned or deserved it - I'm not sure that case can be made, given the state we're driving it to.

O.

[jakswan]

In the Bible, Genesis, we are told we have Dominion, humans rule OK.

...

I am not asking if we have misused that power ( if we have it ) do we actually have dominion over every living beast.

No, there we go done and dusted.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Sane,

just call it I don't Know - gods are explanations for questions we don't know even make sense unless we assume we are special

Assume we are special, now I think that needs exploring.

Where to start.

In the Bible, Genesis, we are told we have Dominion, humans rule OK.

Is it fair  to assume that is true, do we have that power, good or bad.

I am not asking if we have misused that power ( if we have it ) do we actually have dominion over every living beast.

Gonnagle.

Isn't what makes us 'special' the fact we can ask ourselves this in the first place? Our 'specialness' has given us the go-ahead to wipe out entire species, entire habitats, and has given us the wherewithal to annihilate all life on Earth. And if the fundies (religious, political, who cares) do bring about nuclear war our 'specialness' will count for jack as the planet breathes a sigh of relief and sets about the business of healing itself and allowing life to flourish once more without a bunch of two-legged tossers ruining things.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

Well you agree that we are special, good or bad, we are special?

Dear Outrider,

Do we? Functionally, yes. What would make us special, though, is if that was how it was supposed to be, if we had been made for it or had somehow earned or deserved it - I'm not sure that case can be made, given the state we're driving it to.

I think you are hinting at did God make us special, forget God for a moment, are we special.

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Yes and no - we happen to have superior intelligence that has evolved alongside a body well suited for utilising that.

Were we created special? Don't be silly. The best you could argue is that we got evolution's bonus ball but when I look at my cat dozing in the autumn sunshine, I'm not so sure.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

Yes and no - we happen to have superior intelligence that has evolved alongside a body well suited for utilising that.

Yes and no, fair enough, but you then go on to tell me we have superior intelligence ( do we ) and a body well suited for utilising it.

Were we created special? Don't be silly. The best you could argue is that we got evolution's bonus ball but when I look at my cat dozing in the autumn sunshine, I'm not so sure.

Evolution bonus ball, so we are special.

Gonnagle.

[Alan Burns]

I find it arrogant to be told by Christians that I'd be a better person if I had Jesus as my saviour. Or that I'd still be a shit one, but a saved shit one.

Being a better person is not the main aim of Christianity - it is just an attribute you aquire when you accept Jesus as your saviour.

So Christians are better people than non-believers?

No - they (each person) are just better than they would have been without Christianity

So non-believers can be better people without the need for Jesus but Christians need Jesus in order to do/be the same? I don't think that's fair on your fellow believers.

But non-believers could be even better if they embraced Christianity.

[Outrider]

Dear Outrider,

I think you are hinting at did God make us special, forget God for a moment, are we special.

Gonnagle.

In and of ourselves, no, we aren't any more or less than any other species, except to ourselves. We are unique, but so is everything else.

O.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Rhiannon,

Yes and no - we happen to have superior intelligence that has evolved alongside a body well suited for utilising that.

Yes and no, fair enough, but you then go on to tell me we have superior intelligence ( do we ) and a body well suited for utilising it.

Were we created special? Don't be silly. The best you could argue is that we got evolution's bonus ball but when I look at my cat dozing in the autumn sunshine, I'm not so sure.

Evolution bonus ball, so we are special.

Gonnagle.

The intelligence thing is matched by other species. You could argue that we just dropped lucky, but as I said, I'm really not sure that we are that fortunate. It's our large brains and upright gait that has caused so many babies and mothers to die during childbirth. But if you want to argue that our intelligence marks us out as special, then so are cheetahs for being fast, fleas for jumping high, blackbirds for singing sweetly. There's no big deal about us unless everything else is a big deal.

Evolutionary bonus ball is just a poetic turn of phrase not meant to be taken literally. There's a lot of them about.

[Rhiannon]

I find it arrogant to be told by Christians that I'd be a better person if I had Jesus as my saviour. Or that I'd still be a shit one, but a saved shit one.

Being a better person is not the main aim of Christianity - it is just an attribute you aquire when you accept Jesus as your saviour.

So Christians are better people than non-believers?

No - they (each person) are just better than they would have been without Christianity

So non-believers can be better people without the need for Jesus but Christians need Jesus in order to do/be the same? I don't think that's fair on your fellow believers.

But non-believers could be even better if they embraced Christianity.

Oh, so Christians are better people. Glad we got that sorted.

[Gordon]

But non-believers could be even better if they embraced Christianity.

What about all the really good people who lived and died pre-Christianity? It sounds like your God has deprived them of an opportunity to be even better!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Outrider,

Unique, yes I would agree that every living species on this planet is unique but can a dolphin affect the planet the way we do, no, and I would argue that is the same for every other species.

I am not sure about the word intelligence but we have a thing called imagination, whatever we imagine we can do ( it's in the Bible ) we can send man to the moon, we can kill thousands at a push of a button, we can replace body organs, no other animal on this planet can do this, we are special, very special.

We do have dominion, whether we like it or not, we are special.

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Dear Outrider,

Unique, yes I would agree that every living species on this planet is unique but can a dolphin affect the planet the way we do, no, and I would argue that is the same for every other species.

I am not sure about the word intelligence but we have a thing called imagination, whatever we imagine we can do ( it's in the Bible ) we can send man to the moon, we can kill thousands at a push of a button, we can replace body organs, no other animal on this planet can do this, we are special, very special.

We do have dominion, whether we like it or not, we are special.

Gonnagle.

But you are implying that the 'specialness' means something more than our intelligence happening to mean we can or can't do stuff, that it is God given, ordained in heaven. It doesn't, it isn't, and if we do wipe ourselves out the planet and whatever life remains or evolves on it will get on a lot better without us.

In fact you could argue that the correct thing to do with our 'dominion' would be to take out those most likely to threaten life as we know it. But I don't think you mean that, do you?

[Outrider]

I am not sure about the word intelligence but we have a thing called imagination, whatever we imagine we can do ( it's in the Bible )...

I can imagine me surrounded by unicorn-riding leprechauns and yet, despite the word of your Bible, I can't actually make that happen.

...we can send man to the moon, we can kill thousands at a push of a button, we can replace body organs, no other animal on this planet can do this, we are special, very special.

No, we're effective - that doesn't make us special, unless you want to devalue the concept of special. David Cameron is effective. Stalin was effective. Bernie Eccleston. Simon Cowell. Influenza. The van Allen Radiation Belt.

We do have dominion, whether we like it or not, we are special.

Functionally, we have dominion. Special would be deserving it, or you're just not using 'special' in the same sense I am.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Where's the humility, which was being asked for earlier, in regarding ourselves as special?

If a virus wiped humanity out tomorrow, would it have dominion?

[Rhiannon]

'Special' implies some kind of chosen-ness. Our muddle with our functional superiority and the notion of 'special' has led us to where we are now.

Dogs have emotional development akin to that of a two year old child. Their needs are different, true, but not as much as we like to think - we are both social animals. Yet we keep dogs isolated in kennels, we over-breed them, make them race each other, parade them for their looks, even experiment on them, and in some cultures, eat them.

Two year old child= special. Two year old dog = expendable.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Rhiannon,

But you are implying that the 'specialness' means something more than our intelligence happening to mean we can or can't do stuff, that it is God given, ordained in heaven.

I am trying to keep God out of the debate but as Outrider has hinted, maybe special is the wrong word

Dear Outrider,

Special would be deserving it

Deserve it, hhhmmm!!

Gonnagle.