Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

No, the world will probably be here even if we fry ourselves in a nuclear hell. It will survive climate change. The universe certainly will still be here. And both will get on just fine without us.

Instead of thinking how we can save the world maybe, just for once, we should think about valuing the ways in which it saves us - the forests, oceans, fruit trees, honeybees. Instead of patronising nature why don't we try being bloody thankful for it? How powerful we be when the bees are dead, the trees are dead, every cloud pours down acid rain?

But this earth and all the life in it is ultimately just a short blip in the long time line of this universe, which will eventually burn itself out and slowly disintegrate into cold lifeless radiation.  From the materialistic point of view, all life is just part of the continuum of matter in this universe with no ultimate purpose, aim or meaning.  What does it matter if everything is just determined by events driven by scientific laws with nothing in control?  But what if there is control and awareness coming from something outside the limited materialistic nature of our universe?

[Outrider]

But this earth and all the life in it is ultimately just a short blip in the long time line of this universe, which will eventually burn itself out and slowly disintegrate into cold lifeless radiation.

Yep.

From the materialistic point of view, all life is just part of the continuum of matter in this universe with no ultimate purpose, aim or meaning.

Well, not quite. From the cosmic point of view, the materialist accepts that life is a part of the continuum of matter and energy in this universe with no ultimate purpose or meaning. From the point of view of the materialist, though, you can implement whatever personal purpose you choose. As a species, we have the choice what legacy we will leave, even if we have no idea if anything will ever come along that can appreciate it.

What does it matter if everything is just determined by events driven by scientific laws with nothing in control?

Well, it has implications for things like the justification for a penal judicial system, for instance, but more immediately people who incorrectly think that there is a God are killing people and restricting their lives based on that misconception.

But what if there is control and awareness coming from something outside the limited materialistic nature of our universe?

Then it's doing a piss-poor job of communicating what it's expectations are, which suggests that the 'control' isn't that absolute. If the control isn't absolute, how can be sure that the rules it allegedly imparted - presuming that one of the accounts of what those rules are that we still have is actually the right set - are still relevant?

O.

[torridon]

Oh, so Christians are better people. Glad we got that sorted.

I am not saying that any person is better than another - just that each person could achieve personal improvement by embracing Christianity.  I would certainly succumb to more selfish temptations if I were not a Christian.  But as I previously mentioned, personal improvement is a by-product of the main goal of achieving eternal salvation of your soul by accepting Jesus as your saviour.

And Islam can do pretty much the same, see Gab's postings earlier on the thread. That's not a human universal though; for some people, 'getting religion' can make them much worse as people; many jihadists are new converts to religion. I think we are all different is the bottom line.

[Enki]

Oh, so Christians are better people. Glad we got that sorted.

I am not saying that any person is better than another - just that each person could achieve personal improvement by embracing Christianity.  I would certainly succumb to more selfish temptations if I were not a Christian.  But as I previously mentioned, personal improvement is a by-product of the main goal of achieving eternal salvation of your soul by accepting Jesus as your saviour.

But you are saying that a Christian Rhiannon would be a better than a non Christian Rhiannon. And would thereby be a better person. Given your inability to judge design because it would be artogance, why are you so arrogant to tell Rhiannon that she could be better by bring a Christian? Particularly given that she once was? Was she better then, and has become worse? If so, please tell me (a) in what way, (b) how you know, and (c) why that doesn't make you arrogant?

I like this post, Nearly. If I had said the things that Alan had said above, and your post was directed to me instead, I think I would be overcome by an acute sense of shame at my totally unevidenced presumptions about other people.

[Alan Burns]

From the point of view of the materialist, though, you can implement whatever personal purpose you choose. As a species, we have the choice what legacy we will leave, even if we have no idea if anything will ever come along that can appreciate it.

You seem to be admitting that the conscious self has the ability to make a choice which is not pre determined.  To my mind this is an example of human free will.

[Alan Burns]

But what if there is control and awareness coming from something outside the limited materialistic nature of our universe?

If that is the case no doubt we will discover it one day. Until then we should live life to the full whilst we are here, doing our best to help others along the way.

I was implying that the awareness and control comes from within each human soul

[Alan Burns]

Oh, so Christians are better people. Glad we got that sorted.

I am not saying that any person is better than another - just that each person could achieve personal improvement by embracing Christianity.  I would certainly succumb to more selfish temptations if I were not a Christian.  But as I previously mentioned, personal improvement is a by-product of the main goal of achieving eternal salvation of your soul by accepting Jesus as your saviour.

But you are saying that a Christian Rhiannon would be a better than a non Christian Rhiannon. And would thereby be a better person. Given your inability to judge design because it would be artogance, why are you so arrogant to tell Rhiannon that she could be better by bring a Christian? Particularly given that she once was? Was she better then, and has become worse? If so, please tell me (a) in what way, (b) how you know, and (c) why that doesn't make you arrogant?

I like this post, Nearly. If I had said the things that Alan had said above, and your post was directed to me instead, I think I would be overcome by an acute sense of shame at my totally unevidenced presumptions about other people.

As a non believer you will not be able to comprehend the power of God's grace in our lives which will be given freely to those who ask for it in faith.

[torridon]

As a non believer you will not be able to comprehend the power of God's grace in our lives which will be given freely to those who ask for it in faith.

Assertion alert.

Clearly you haven't been reading this thread, otherwise you would know by now that this Grace thing certainly doesn't happen for everyone.

[Enki]

Oh, so Christians are better people. Glad we got that sorted.

I am not saying that any person is better than another - just that each person could achieve personal improvement by embracing Christianity.  I would certainly succumb to more selfish temptations if I were not a Christian.  But as I previously mentioned, personal improvement is a by-product of the main goal of achieving eternal salvation of your soul by accepting Jesus as your saviour.

But you are saying that a Christian Rhiannon would be a better than a non Christian Rhiannon. And would thereby be a better person. Given your inability to judge design because it would be artogance, why are you so arrogant to tell Rhiannon that she could be better by bring a Christian? Particularly given that she once was? Was she better then, and has become worse? If so, please tell me (a) in what way, (b) how you know, and (c) why that doesn't make you arrogant?

I like this post, Nearly. If I had said the things that Alan had said above, and your post was directed to me instead, I think I would be overcome by an acute sense of shame at my totally unevidenced presumptions about other people.

As a non believer you will not be able to comprehend the power of God's grace in our lives which will be given freely to those who ask for it in faith.

An extremely predictable answer, Alan. Although I'm not at all sure how you come to the conclusion that I can't understand the 'power of God's grace', as you call it, in affecting the lives of those who experience it. Perhaps you meant the 'nature of God's grace?  I think that it is extremely powerful for those particular people, and believing in it can completely transform lives, in my opinion some for the better, and some for the worse.

Funny how you should reply to me though, and not to the three pertinent questions that Nearly Sane asked you? (Unless I missed that particular post)

Perhaps you might now do so. 

[Alan Burns]

Oh, so Christians are better people. Glad we got that sorted.

I am not saying that any person is better than another - just that each person could achieve personal improvement by embracing Christianity.  I would certainly succumb to more selfish temptations if I were not a Christian.  But as I previously mentioned, personal improvement is a by-product of the main goal of achieving eternal salvation of your soul by accepting Jesus as your saviour.

But you are saying that a Christian Rhiannon would be a better than a non Christian Rhiannon. And would thereby be a better person. Given your inability to judge design because it would be artogance, why are you so arrogant to tell Rhiannon that she could be better by bring a Christian? Particularly given that she once was? Was she better then, and has become worse? If so, please tell me (a) in what way, (b) how you know, and (c) why that doesn't make you arrogant?

I like this post, Nearly. If I had said the things that Alan had said above, and your post was directed to me instead, I think I would be overcome by an acute sense of shame at my totally unevidenced presumptions about other people.

As a non believer you will not be able to comprehend the power of God's grace in our lives which will be given freely to those who ask for it in faith.

An extremely predictable answer, Alan. Although I'm not at all sure how you come to the conclusion that I can't understand the 'power of God's grace', as you call it, in affecting the lives of those who experience it. Perhaps you meant the 'nature of God's grace?  I think that it is extremely powerful for those particular people, and believing in it can completely transform lives, in my opinion some for the better, and some for the worse.

Funny how you should reply to me though, and not to the three pertinent questions that Nearly Sane asked you? (Unless I missed that particular post)

Perhaps you might now do so. 

I can't comment on the success or failure of other people's attempts to find God.  It is a very personal thing, and God comes to people in many different ways and in His own timing.  But I have seen many lives transformed in those people who have come to accept the real Jesus into their lives.

[Nearly Sane]

But you are saying that a Christian Rhiannon would be a better than a non Christian Rhiannon. And would thereby be a better person. Given your inability to judge design because it would be artogance, why are you so arrogant to tell Rhiannon that she could be better by bring a Christian? Particularly given that she once was? Was she better then, and has become worse? If so, please tell me (a) in what way, (b) how you know, and (c) why that doesn't make you arrogant?

I like this post, Nearly. If I had said the things that Alan had said above, and your post was directed to me instead, I think I would be overcome by an acute sense of shame at my totally unevidenced presumptions about other people.

As a non believer you will not be able to comprehend the power of God's grace in our lives which will be given freely to those who ask for it in faith.

An extremely predictable answer, Alan. Although I'm not at all sure how you come to the conclusion that I can't understand the 'power of God's grace', as you call it, in affecting the lives of those who experience it. Perhaps you meant the 'nature of God's grace?  I think that it is extremely powerful for those particular people, and believing in it can completely transform lives, in my opinion some for the better, and some for the worse.

Funny how you should reply to me though, and not to the three pertinent questions that Nearly Sane asked you? (Unless I missed that particular post)

Perhaps you might now do so. 

I can't comment on the success or failure of other people's attempts to find God.  It is a very personal thing, and God comes to people in many different ways and in His own timing.  But I have seen many lives transformed in those people who have come to accept the real Jesus into their lives.

No one has asked you to. I've asked you about logical follow on from your statements that being Christian makes people better and the logical outcomes. Do you have a reason to avoid the import of your statements?

[Outrider]

From the point of view of the materialist, though, you can implement whatever personal purpose you choose. As a species, we have the choice what legacy we will leave, even if we have no idea if anything will ever come along that can appreciate it.

You seem to be admitting that the conscious self has the ability to make a choice which is not pre determined.  To my mind this is an example of human free will.

No, I'm saying that from the point of view of the conscious self it feels like it's making a choice.

O.

[Rhiannon]

Oh, so Christians are better people. Glad we got that sorted.

I am not saying that any person is better than another - just that each person could achieve personal improvement by embracing Christianity.  I would certainly succumb to more selfish temptations if I were not a Christian.  But as I previously mentioned, personal improvement is a by-product of the main goal of achieving eternal salvation of your soul by accepting Jesus as your saviour.

But you are saying that a Christian Rhiannon would be a better than a non Christian Rhiannon. And would thereby be a better person. Given your inability to judge design because it would be artogance, why are you so arrogant to tell Rhiannon that she could be better by bring a Christian? Particularly given that she once was? Was she better then, and has become worse? If so, please tell me (a) in what way, (b) how you know, and (c) why that doesn't make you arrogant?

I like this post, Nearly. If I had said the things that Alan had said above, and your post was directed to me instead, I think I would be overcome by an acute sense of shame at my totally unevidenced presumptions about other people.

As a non believer you will not be able to comprehend the power of God's grace in our lives which will be given freely to those who ask for it in faith.

But as NS pointed out, I was a believer and I did ask for God's grace. Why didn't I receive it?

[jeremyp]

But as NS pointed out, I was a believer and I did ask for God's grace. Why didn't I receive it?

Obviously you had the same problem as me: you weren't a true Christian.

[Nearly Sane]

And both of you are so much worse than you would have been as Christians

[Nearly Sane]

Any chance of an answer from Alan about his judgement that Rhiannon and jeremyp are now so much worse? Please explain how you know, your method of judgment, how you evaluate that against what they were before to justify your statement.

[Alan Burns]

Any chance of an answer from Alan about his judgement that Rhiannon and jeremyp are now so much worse? Please explain how you know, your method of judgment, how you evaluate that against what they were before to justify your statement.

It is my hope and prayer that all the non believers on this forum will come to accept Jesus into their lives, and in doing so will find their lives much richer than they could ever imagine.

Every comitted Christian I know (and there are many) will testify that they are better people for knowing Jesus.

[Rhiannon]

That doesn't answer NS' question.

What would you say if I were to tell you I think I'm a better person now?

[Alan Burns]

That doesn't answer NS' question.

What would you say if I were to tell you I think I'm a better person now?

God may not agree with you.

[Rhiannon]

That doesn't answer NS' question.

What would you say if I were to tell you I think I'm a better person now?

God may not agree with you.

And you feel you have the right to say that based on what?

[jeremyp]

That doesn't answer NS' question.

What would you say if I were to tell you I think I'm a better person now?

God may not agree with you.

And that is something that would concern me if I thought he existed and gave a toss about me.

[Nearly Sane]

Any chance of an answer from Alan about his judgement that Rhiannon and jeremyp are now so much worse? Please explain how you know, your method of judgment, how you evaluate that against what they were before to justify your statement.

It is my hope and prayer that all the non believers on this forum will come to accept Jesus into their lives, and in doing so will find their lives much richer than they could ever imagine.

Every comitted Christian I know (and there are many) will testify that they are better people for knowing Jesus.

that's nice, why are you ignoring the questions? Please tell me how you know Rhiannon is worse now?

[Alan Burns]

Any chance of an answer from Alan about his judgement that Rhiannon and jeremyp are now so much worse? Please explain how you know, your method of judgment, how you evaluate that against what they were before to justify your statement.

It is my hope and prayer that all the non believers on this forum will come to accept Jesus into their lives, and in doing so will find their lives much richer than they could ever imagine.

Every comitted Christian I know (and there are many) will testify that they are better people for knowing Jesus.

that's nice, why are you ignoring the questions? Please tell me how you know Rhiannon is worse now?

She may well be a better person than she ever was before.
She may be a better person than me.
I do not know her.

All I am saying is that any person who gains true faith in Jesus will be even better for it.

[Alan Burns]

That doesn't answer NS' question.

What would you say if I were to tell you I think I'm a better person now?

God may not agree with you.

And you feel you have the right to say that based on what?

I have no right to say it - I was just speculating, but I may be wrong.

[Nearly Sane]

Any chance of an answer from Alan about his judgement that Rhiannon and jeremyp are now so much worse? Please explain how you know, your method of judgment, how you evaluate that against what they were before to justify your statement.

It is my hope and prayer that all the non believers on this forum will come to accept Jesus into their lives, and in doing so will find their lives much richer than they could ever imagine.

Every comitted Christian I know (and there are many) will testify that they are better people for knowing Jesus.

that's nice, why are you ignoring the questions? Please tell me how you know Rhiannon is worse now?

She may well be a better person than she ever was before.
She may be a better person than me.
I do not know her.

All I am saying is that any person who gains true faith in Jesus will be even better for it.

And the things you say have logical points. If being a Christian makes you better, then Rhiannon, who used to be Christian is now worse. So how do you justify that judgement? How is it not arrogant to state that? If you are saying that is not your position, what is it you are retracting?