Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3901729 times)

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64357
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4825 on: October 20, 2015, 10:40:30 PM »
That doesn't answer NS' question.

What would you say if I were to tell you I think I'm a better person now?
God may not agree with you.

And you feel you have the right to say that based on what?
I have no right to say it - I was just speculating, but I may be wrong.
No, you said it
 You did not speculate that people were better as Christians, you stated it. Were you wrong to state that? Do you understand that you did state it?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64357
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4826 on: October 20, 2015, 10:43:48 PM »
Any chance of an answer from Alan about his judgement that Rhiannon and jeremyp are now so much worse? Please explain how you know, your method of judgment, how you evaluate that against what they were before to justify your statement.
It is my hope and prayer that all the non believers on this forum will come to accept Jesus into their lives, and in doing so will find their lives much richer than they could ever imagine.

Every comitted Christian I know (and there are many) will testify that they are better people for knowing Jesus.
that's nice, why are you ignoring the questions? Please tell me how you know Rhiannon is worse now?
She may well be a better person than she ever was before.
She may be a better person than me.
I do not know her.

All I am saying is that any person who gains true faith in Jesus will be even better for it.
So she is now worse than when she was a Christian - that is the logical point of what you are saying. She was a Christian, she is not now, so she must be worse. So tell me again, how you know, what that judgement is based on, and why you are so arrogant to tell her she is now worse?

Andy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1176
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4827 on: October 20, 2015, 11:00:15 PM »
If being better means "speculatively" assessing people in this dichotomous way, then I prefer to be worse.

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10216
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4828 on: October 21, 2015, 06:52:35 AM »
Once you know Jesus, you can't stop believing in Him.  You can't cease to believe in someone you know exists.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4829 on: October 21, 2015, 07:46:03 AM »
Once you know Jesus, you can't stop believing in Him.  You can't cease to believe in someone you know exists.

You never came across someone who lost their faith ?  You give the impression of someone who is so deeply selective you completely ignore all testimony that does not chime with your own experience. We are all different.

Rhiannon

  • Guest
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4830 on: October 21, 2015, 08:31:27 AM »
I wasn't in a bad place when I lost my faith; I was sitting in my chair feeding my baby when I just knew God had gone. It was as sudden as a light switch flicking, and although I carried on for two or three years to make my faith come back in all kinds of ways, I never truly felt God's presence again, even though I then had some deeply traumatic times when having him around would have been helpful.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64357
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4831 on: October 21, 2015, 08:34:14 AM »
Once you know Jesus, you can't stop believing in Him.  You can't cease to believe in someone you know exists.
So people who have given up their faith are lying? Is there no end to your arrogance?

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5684
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4832 on: October 21, 2015, 08:41:20 AM »
Once you know Jesus, you can't stop believing in Him.  You can't cease to believe in someone you know exists.

Clearly you can because it happens. This is because people don't know Jesus exists but believe he does and beliefs can change.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14572
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4833 on: October 21, 2015, 08:51:09 AM »
It is my hope and prayer that all the non believers on this forum will come to accept Jesus into their lives, and in doing so will find their lives much richer than they could ever imagine.

Thank you, I appreciate that sentiment - I don't agree, but I appreciate the good will in it.

Quote
Every comitted Christian I know (and there are many) will testify that they are better people for knowing Jesus.

As an hypothesis, could that not say more about the quality of those people that feel they need religion in their lives to be better people than it does about the power of Jesus?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14572
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4834 on: October 21, 2015, 08:52:29 AM »
Once you know Jesus, you can't stop believing in Him.  You can't cease to believe in someone you know exists.

All you need do now is justify the claim that you 'know'.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11087
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4835 on: October 21, 2015, 09:19:25 AM »
Once you know Jesus, you can't stop believing in Him.  You can't cease to believe in someone you know exists.

And equally you can't start to believe in someone you know doesn't exist.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

BashfulAnthony

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7520
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4836 on: October 21, 2015, 01:30:42 PM »
It is a great pity that some who claim to be Christians, and presumably want to be in favour with Jesus, whom they reckon is still hanging around somewhere, don't behave in a decent way.

I am absolutely sickened by the vile nastiness at present being perpetrated by these Jesus loving creeps! If their faith has any credence and they hope to wind up in heaven one day they better think on. They might just end up in hell with heathens like myself, if Jesus tells them where to stick their 'buddy' status! :(

What an unpleasant little diatribe!
BA.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.

It is my commandment that you love one another."

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10216
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4837 on: October 30, 2015, 11:43:54 PM »
Once you know Jesus, you can't stop believing in Him.  You can't cease to believe in someone you know exists.
So people who have given up their faith are lying? Is there no end to your arrogance?
There is a difference between belief and knowledge.  Beliefs can change, but once you come to know something exists there is no turning back.  When CS Lewis was still an unbeliever, he found it difficult to deal with his Christian friends who claimed to know Jesus, not just believe in Him.  He could not dismiss them as being delusioned, because he knew them too well.  Ultimately he had to question his own atheistic stance and reluctantly change his own belief.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5684
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4838 on: October 31, 2015, 02:55:34 AM »
Once you know Jesus, you can't stop believing in Him.  You can't cease to believe in someone you know exists.
So people who have given up their faith are lying? Is there no end to your arrogance?
There is a difference between belief and knowledge.  Beliefs can change, but once you come to know something exists there is no turning back.  When CS Lewis was still an unbeliever, he found it difficult to deal with his Christian friends who claimed to know Jesus, not just believe in Him.  He could not dismiss them as being delusioned, because he knew them too well.  Ultimately he had to question his own atheistic stance and reluctantly change his own belief.

Its interesting that you  use C.S. Lewis as an example since he reportedly said about his time as an atheist that he was "angry with God for not existing". You cannot be angry with something which you don't believe in so did he truly have no belief in God or was he suppressing a belief (he did grow up in a religious environment) for intellectual or other reasons?

There is certainly a difference between belief and knowledge and faith is a belief not knowledge, regardless of how deep and strong that faith is.

Leonard James

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12443
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4839 on: October 31, 2015, 06:27:18 AM »
When CS Lewis was still an unbeliever, he found it difficult to deal with his Christian friends who claimed to know Jesus, not just believe in Him.  He could not dismiss them as being delusioned, because he knew them too well. 

What a foolish assertion that was!

I'm sure, Alan, that you know many good people very well who are of faiths other than your own. Do you consider them deluded or not?

torridon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10210
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4840 on: October 31, 2015, 07:38:56 AM »
Once you know Jesus, you can't stop believing in Him.  You can't cease to believe in someone you know exists.
So people who have given up their faith are lying? Is there no end to your arrogance?
There is a difference between belief and knowledge.  Beliefs can change, but once you come to know something exists there is no turning back.  When CS Lewis was still an unbeliever, he found it difficult to deal with his Christian friends who claimed to know Jesus, not just believe in Him.  He could not dismiss them as being delusioned, because he knew them too well.  Ultimately he had to question his own atheistic stance and reluctantly change his own belief.

and in the mind of a devout muslim, you are an unbeliever still, just like me. You are not reconciled yet to seeking a broader understanding that encompasses the diversity of religious and human experience.

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33225
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4841 on: October 31, 2015, 09:20:56 AM »
Once you know Jesus, you can't stop believing in Him.  You can't cease to believe in someone you know exists.
So people who have given up their faith are lying? Is there no end to your arrogance?
There is a difference between belief and knowledge.  Beliefs can change, but once you come to know something exists there is no turning back.  When CS Lewis was still an unbeliever, he found it difficult to deal with his Christian friends who claimed to know Jesus, not just believe in Him.  He could not dismiss them as being delusioned, because he knew them too well.  Ultimately he had to question his own atheistic stance and reluctantly change his own belief.

and in the mind of a devout muslim, you are an unbeliever still, just like me. You are not reconciled yet to seeking a broader understanding that encompasses the diversity of religious and human experience.
There are Christian theologians who say that because of their having different intent Christianity could live quite accommodatingly along side forms of Buddhism and Hindu thought.

Christianity I suppose can accommodate much of what is proposed theologically by Judaism and Islam......but of course Christianity has what the other two deny....added Christ....does rejecting the Christ proposition amount to a broader understanding, that God has delivered his word to humanity more organically in the person of Jesus?....and of course Christianity has a more pessimistic view of humanity suggesting man needs God to reach God which, is only a bad addition in the eyes of the individual and collective egos which want to reach God by individual merit.

It is the denial of Christ where, I move a Christian disagrees with anyone. Not, as I keep observing atheists accusing Christians of, a flat Dawkinsian dismissal of their deities, where the likes of Dawkins comes out with stuff like ''as an atheist I just reject one more god than you''. That limp playing to the gallery just betrays an ignorance of Christians and religion in general. 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 09:41:26 AM by On stage before it wore off. »

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10216
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4842 on: October 31, 2015, 09:56:10 AM »

and in the mind of a devout muslim, you are an unbeliever still, just like me. You are not reconciled yet to seeking a broader understanding that encompasses the diversity of religious and human experience.

But seeking a broader understanding that encompasses the diversity of religious and human experience will not lead you to the truth.  The existence of alternative belief systems should not distract you from seeking out the truth behind our existence.  There is only one truth and we only have one lifetime to find it.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 10:01:16 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walt Zingmatilder

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 33225
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4843 on: October 31, 2015, 09:59:57 AM »
Any chance of an answer from Alan about his judgement that Rhiannon and jeremyp are now so much worse? Please explain how you know, your method of judgment, how you evaluate that against what they were before to justify your statement.
It is my hope and prayer that all the non believers on this forum will come to accept Jesus into their lives, and in doing so will find their lives much richer than they could ever imagine.

Every comitted Christian I know (and there are many) will testify that they are better people for knowing Jesus.
that's nice, why are you ignoring the questions? Please tell me how you know Rhiannon is worse now?
She may well be a better person than she ever was before.
She may be a better person than me.
I do not know her.

All I am saying is that any person who gains true faith in Jesus will be even better for it.
So she is now worse than when she was a Christian - that is the logical point of what you are saying. She was a Christian, she is not now, so she must be worse. So tell me again, how you know, what that judgement is based on, and why you are so arrogant to tell her she is now worse?
I think what must be on the mind of Christians who fall away is the notion of being ''born from above/born again. This would make Christianity more of an organic, happen to a person, thing rather than the atheist belief of the ''Human carte Blanche'' shopping in the supermarket of ideas.

As it is impossible to be unborn then, someone falling away could still be born again.

I've never thought this was the forum to judge whose good or bad so i'll leave it the secular humanists to declare that ''everyone's a bloody good bloke except those who religion has made worse.''

Alan Burns

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10216
  • I lay it down of my own free will. John 10:18
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4844 on: October 31, 2015, 10:55:47 AM »
When CS Lewis was still an unbeliever, he found it difficult to deal with his Christian friends who claimed to know Jesus, not just believe in Him.  He could not dismiss them as being delusioned, because he knew them too well. 

What a foolish assertion that was!

I'm sure, Alan, that you know many good people very well who are of faiths other than your own. Do you consider them deluded or not?
They may have sincere beliefs, but they do not share the profound certainty I have in knowing Jesus.  I know this will sound arrogant to people outside the faith, but you can't imagine just how real Jesus is until He comes into your life.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5684
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4845 on: October 31, 2015, 10:58:45 AM »
When CS Lewis was still an unbeliever, he found it difficult to deal with his Christian friends who claimed to know Jesus, not just believe in Him.  He could not dismiss them as being delusioned, because he knew them too well. 

What a foolish assertion that was!

I'm sure, Alan, that you know many good people very well who are of faiths other than your own. Do you consider them deluded or not?
They may have sincere beliefs, but they do not share the profound certainty I have in knowing Jesus.  I know this will sound arrogant to people outside the faith, but you can't imagine just how real Jesus is until He comes into your life.

Yes it does sound arrogant.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14572
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4846 on: October 31, 2015, 11:17:57 AM »
There is a difference between belief and knowledge.

Yes there is, but in the absence of verifiable information you can only ever believe anything about gods. You can believe that you know, but you're wrong.

Quote
Beliefs can change, but once you come to know something exists there is no turning back.  When CS Lewis was still an unbeliever, he found it difficult to deal with his Christian friends who claimed to know Jesus, not just believe in Him.  He could not dismiss them as being delusioned, because he knew them too well.

Thankfully we have more data about the nature of cognition, nowadays, and we can accept that otherwise intelligent people are capable of believing incredible nonsense.

Quote
Ultimately he had to question his own atheistic stance and reluctantly change his own belief.

In the absence of evidence, many belief systems are sustainable.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14572
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4847 on: October 31, 2015, 11:27:58 AM »
There are Christian theologians who say that because of their having different intent Christianity could live quite accommodatingly along side forms of Buddhism and Hindu thought.

And there are, equally, Christian theologians (and their Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist and whatever else) who would maintain that any deviation from a particular path is heresy and cannot be abided. Unfortunately, given the lack of any reliable information, all those opinions are equally (in)valid.

Quote
Christianity I suppose can accommodate much of what is proposed theologically by Judaism and Islam......but of course Christianity has what the other two deny....added Christ....does rejecting the Christ proposition amount to a broader understanding, that God has delivered his word to humanity more organically in the person of Jesus?

Of course, that's a subjective interpretation - other paths might suggest that Christianity has polluted the idea of the divine by claiming that God sullied itself by manifesting as human, that man was made in God's image and not vice versa. You see Jesus as something 'added' to the whole to make it more, others see it as a stain.

Quote
....and of course Christianity has a more pessimistic view of humanity suggesting man needs God to reach God which, is only a bad addition in the eyes of the individual and collective egos which want to reach God by individual merit.

It does particularly jar for those of us who view individual liberty, responsibility and capacity as something to be both proud and wary of, yes. One of the reasons, in the modern world, that Christianity is slowly dying out, because it's fundamentally at odds with the idea of personal liberty, rights, freedoms and the like.

Quote
It is the denial of Christ where, I move a Christian disagrees with anyone.

Kind of by definition, I'd say.

Quote
Not, as I keep observing atheists accusing Christians of, a flat Dawkinsian dismissal of their deities, where the likes of Dawkins comes out with stuff like ''as an atheist I just reject one more god than you''.


Not really. Most of the Hindu deities are supposed to have incarnations that manifest on Earth, the myths of the Greek gods have terrestrial manifestations. As a Christian you accept one story of a deity manifesting, but dismiss all of the others - you do really reject one fewer god than the atheists do, it's a simple matter of maths. You like to think that there's something qualitatively different about the Jesus/God concept, but I've yet to see anyone demonstrate what that might be.

Quote
That limp playing to the gallery just betrays an ignorance of Christians and religion in general.

That depiction just demonstrates special pleading. Christianity isn't manifestly different, isn't qualitatively separate, it's just another variant of accepting supernatural claims - the specific  claims might differ, but the nature of them doesn't particularly.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14572
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4848 on: October 31, 2015, 11:30:13 AM »
But seeking a broader understanding that encompasses the diversity of religious and human experience will not lead you to the truth.

You assert, but you don't explain why.

Quote
The existence of alternative belief systems should not distract you from seeking out the truth behind our existence.  There is only one truth and we only have one lifetime to find it.

Again, an assertion. Are we capable of understanding this truth? You claim to have done so, but many others with different claims also think they have. Discounting the concept that you're all wrong, is it not possible that nobody is capable of grasping the entirety of the idea of a god, and all the various religious outlooks are fragmentary glimpses of the whole?

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14572
Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #4849 on: October 31, 2015, 11:32:59 AM »
They may have sincere beliefs, but they do not share the profound certainty I have in knowing Jesus.

They fly planes into buildings, killing themselves and thousands of others - how much of a profound certainty do you think they lack? They 'know' Allah, at  least as profoundly as you know Jesus - at least one of you must be wrong. You can believe it's them, but you can't know it.

Quote
I know this will sound arrogant to people outside the faith, but you can't imagine just how real Jesus is until He comes into your life.

It sounds arrogant to people inside the faith, I'd wager. I can imagine how real Jesus might be, I can see how impactful the idea of Jesus can be on people, but I cannot see how you can justify the claim to know, nor how you can say that your demonstrable certainty somehow trumps someone else's equally demonstrable certainty.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints