Searching for GOD...

[Outrider]

What is the evidence of an experience of a sense of self outside personal experience of self?

What's the evidence of anything outside of a personal experience? We are dependent upon our sensory input for everything.

O.

Ah, Outrider comes back with one of his theories of anything.

You forgot to put your point in your response.

O.

[ippy]

Think about this statement of yours Alan:

"I am sure our awareness of souls is a natural God given insight which has been common throughout the history of the human race.  The Devil will use any means to tempt us into believing that God does not exist, and neither does our soul, but we need to look beyond these false assumptions and re discover our true self".
=====
You've got to be living in some kind of dream world, probably of your own making, to come out with this kind of nonsense, like I said think about it, how could you or anyone else possibly know any of this, it's bad enough that you think like this, even worse you actually believe this absolute nonsense is true.

Your posts certainly don't show signs of getting any better.

ippy

You seem to be insinuating some form of personal insanity when my post is simply quoting mainstream Christian belief on a Christian thread.

Yes?

It's not as though you or any of these numerous christians you speak of have anything to back up the things you all seem to think you know.

Even you must realise that if there were anything conclusive that might secure these things you pretend to know as facts, they would have become extraordinary world news by now and people like me would no longer have any reason to question your beliefs?

I just wonder, don't you think since this big news event hasn't happened and until such times this unlikely extraordinary news event does happen there might be something that's a little bit more than a just a hole, or a fault somewhere in your reasoning?

No doubt if you do respond to my post you'll turn yourself inside out to explain to yourself how to hang on to your deeply held lack logic belief.

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Think about this statement of yours Alan:

"I am sure our awareness of souls is a natural God given insight which has been common throughout the history of the human race.  The Devil will use any means to tempt us into believing that God does not exist, and neither does our soul, but we need to look beyond these false assumptions and re discover our true self".
=====
You've got to be living in some kind of dream world, probably of your own making, to come out with this kind of nonsense, like I said think about it, how could you or anyone else possibly know any of this, it's bad enough that you think like this, even worse you actually believe this absolute nonsense is true.

Your posts certainly don't show signs of getting any better.

ippy

You seem to be insinuating some form of personal insanity when my post is simply quoting mainstream Christian belief on a Christian thread.

Yes?

It's not as though you or any of these numerous christians you speak of have anything to back up the things you all seem to think you know.

Even you must realise that if there were anything conclusive that might secure these things you pretend to know as facts, they would have become extraordinary world news by now and people like me would no longer have any reason to question your beliefs?

I just wonder, don't you think since this big news event hasn't happened and until such times this unlikely extraordinary news event does happen there might be something that's a little bit more than a just a hole, or a fault somewhere in your reasoning?

No doubt if you do respond to my post you'll turn yourself inside out to explain to yourself how to hang on to your deeply held lack logic belief.

ippy

The last people to suggest mental incapacity on the part of religious peoples were the soviets.

With some Secular Humanists keeping the Stalinist flame fanned we need to be vigilant against such totalitarianism.

[torridon]

So why did lots of humans all over the world suddenly start to believe in something for which there is no physical evidence?  There is overwhelming evidence that all physical beings come to an end when they die, so what prompted the human race to start to believe in a soul which could transcend death?

There's no evidence for that; not in any history book I have read at least. The geographic diversity and historic development of early belief systems seems to me entirely consistent with what we might have predicted from an elementary understanding of human psychology and ancient history.

That's ok if we dismiss the simple fact that a people whose guiding principle was truth, truth and more truth, were given the  initial task of writing about this particular truth supported by a number of independent truth seekers and which carried a distinct and wonderful message to the four corners of the Earth, right through the generations since...It has demanded every tyrant gets in on the act or lose their adhesion over their masses and has proven true to every generation and every person who complies with this teaching, accurately.

Jesus has had more followers than Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson and the entire team of celebs put together who fashion their adoration on spiritual laws that are destructive rather than uplifting...but hey...torridon knows better.

Hey Sparky good to see you here, welcome back 

I stand by my comment to Alan. I'm not an expert on ancient history but I think I would have heard about some sudden unexplained global awakening of a particular belief set in ancient times.  Rather, what really happens, is that beliefs grow organically, they diverge, fragment, regroup, splinter, evolve, largely in line with changes in the underlying population demographics and changes in political power structures. If we draw out a map of beliefs over time we get a
tree structure remarkably reminiscent of the phylogenetic tree diagrams we get from evolutionary biology.  Here is a nice zoomable one :

http://funki.com.ua/ru/portfolio/lab/world-religions-tree/

[Alan Burns]

I stand by my comment to Alan. I'm not an expert on ancient history but I think I would have heard about some sudden unexplained global awakening of a particular belief set in ancient times.  Rather, what really happens, is that beliefs grow organically, they diverge, fragment, regroup, splinter, evolve, largely in line with changes in the underlying population demographics and changes in political power structures. If we draw out a map of beliefs over time we get a
tree structure remarkably reminiscent of the phylogenetic tree diagrams we get from evolutionary biology.  Here is a nice zoomable one :

http://funki.com.ua/ru/portfolio/lab/world-religions-tree/

Thanks for this interesting link.

I think it reinforces the point I was making that on the evolutionary time scale there has been an instantaneous spiritual awakening of communities of human beings all over the world.  The realisation that we are spiritual beings is a natural human trait.

[Alan Burns]

It's not as though you or any of these numerous christians you speak of have anything to back up the things you all seem to think you know.

Even you must realise that if there were anything conclusive that might secure these things you pretend to know as facts, they would have become extraordinary world news by now and people like me would no longer have any reason to question your beliefs?

I just wonder, don't you think since this big news event hasn't happened and until such times this unlikely extraordinary news event does happen there might be something that's a little bit more than a just a hole, or a fault somewhere in your reasoning?

No doubt if you do respond to my post you'll turn yourself inside out to explain to yourself how to hang on to your deeply held lack logic belief.

ippy

I do not need to turn myself inside out to explain my beliefs.  They are more logical than any alternative belief system.

I think your post aptly demonstrates the success of the Devil in his aim of hiding the truth from most people.

[Nearly Sane]

I do not need to turn myself inside out to explain my beliefs.  They are more logical than any alternative belief system.

I think your post aptly demonstrates the success of the Devil in his aim of hiding the truth from most people.

Which just illustrates how illogical your belief system is - why did your god create a devil that he knew being omniscient would do this? Why would a devil who obviously according to you must know that god exists try and hide it , after all it rebelled while knoing there was a god? Why would your god allow a devil to hide him?

[floo]

I do not need to turn myself inside out to explain my beliefs.  They are more logical than any alternative belief system.

I think your post aptly demonstrates the success of the Devil in his aim of hiding the truth from most people.

Which just illustrates how illogical your belief system is - why did your god create a devil that he knew being omniscient would do this? Why would a devil who obviously according to you must know that god exists try and hide it , after all it rebelled while knoing there was a god? Why would your god allow a devil to hide him?

The answer to that question should be interesting!

[Alan Burns]

Who's trivialising it? This is an amazing thing, that such subtlety and refining, a recursive, self-correcting, self-updating, coherent, complex data form is sustained by brain activity despite the regular and complete replacement of all the physical hardware in which it is active.

That's stupendous, that's not trivialising it. Trivialising it is saying that despite that incredible complexity you understand it well enough to determine there's no way consciousness could be a part of that so you're going to invent 'souls'.

O.

I did not invent the idea of a soul.  The awareness of souls has been an integral part of all civilisation for the last few thousand years.

Arguably most of our thinking pre science was wrong.  Nothing surprising about that.

I think you are over estimating what science can explain.  It is a staggering assumption to think that science can be used to explain everything about our existence.  It is only scratching the surface of reality.

It's probably the case that we can never know everything, there are limits to knowledge no doubt. In terms of human history we have only just begun exploring our world in a systematic and methodical way. Having started out from a position of effectively zero correct knowledge, science has been gradually eliminating incorrect ideas by developing rigorous testing methods so what we are left with is a much smaller set of reasonably accurate models of reality.  It's inevitable that in that process we have to wave goodbye to some cherished ideas that we inherited from earlier times.

But no amount of systematic, rigorous testing and elimination will alter the relationship I have with God.

[Alan Burns]

I do not need to turn myself inside out to explain my beliefs.  They are more logical than any alternative belief system.

I think your post aptly demonstrates the success of the Devil in his aim of hiding the truth from most people.

Which just illustrates how illogical your belief system is - why did your god create a devil that he knew being omniscient would do this? Why would a devil who obviously according to you must know that god exists try and hide it , after all it rebelled while knoing there was a god? Why would your god allow a devil to hide him?

I can't pretend to know the bigger picture.  I do know that good and evil exist and I put my faith in Jesus as my saviour to deliver me from evil.

[Shaker]

I do not need to turn myself inside out to explain my beliefs.  They are more logical than any alternative belief system.

Sorry Alan, but given that you demonstrably wouldn't recognise logic if it appeared in front of you wearing a multicoloured clown costume covered in neon lights, accompanied by the band of the Grenadier Guards playing 'Logical Days Are Here Again,' you clearly don't know or can't grasp any alternative.

I think your post aptly demonstrates the success of the Devil in his aim of hiding the truth from most people.

I think regarding rational people who remain wholly unconvinced by your frankly pitiful arguments and frankly equally pitiful beliefs as under the sway of Satan is arrant madness, and really does go to show just how far along the wilder shores of pottiness your belief system has led you.

[Outrider]

But no amount of systematic, rigorous testing and elimination will alter the relationship I have with God.

That speaks volumes for your commitment, which is commendable if you're right and sad if you're wrong, but it says nothing for the validity of your belief.

O.

[Alan Burns]

I do not need to turn myself inside out to explain my beliefs.  They are more logical than any alternative belief system.

Sorry Alan, but given that you demonstrably wouldn't recognise logic if it appeared in front of you wearing a multicoloured clown costume covered in neon lights, accompanied by the band of the Grenadier Guards playing 'Logical Days Are Here Again,' you clearly don't know or can't grasp any alternative.

I think your post aptly demonstrates the success of the Devil in his aim of hiding the truth from most people.

I think regarding rational people who remain wholly unconvinced by your frankly pitiful arguments and frankly equally pitiful beliefs as under the sway of Satan is arrant madness, and really does go to show just how far along the wilder shores of pottiness your belief system has led you.

Any logic which leads to the conclusion that the content of your posts was pre determined by an inevitable chain of events which began with the big bang is clearly flawed.  Believe in your soul which determines your free will and defines what you are!

[Outrider]

Any logic which leads to the conclusion that the content of your posts was pre determined by an inevitable chain of events which began with the big bang is clearly flawed.

Why? If there is a flaw in the logic, by all means go point it out, but to just claim that there is one because you don't like the conclusion is no more convincing than you claiming there is a god because you do like that conclusion.

Believe in your soul which determines your free will and defines what you are!

Except that:
a) there is no evidence for souls
b) there is no evidence for a mechanism by which souls could interact with the human body
c) there is no evidence that anything currently unexplained is interacting with the human body, which could hypothetically be a soul
d) free will is still an oxymoron
e) beliefs cannot be chosen

O.

[Shaker]

Oh ... at top speed Outrider beat me to it!

[Nearly Sane]

Which just illustrates how illogical your belief system is - why did your god create a devil that he knew being omniscient would do this? Why would a devil who obviously according to you must know that god exists try and hide it , after all it rebelled while knoing there was a god? Why would your god allow a devil to hide him?

I can't pretend to know the bigger picture.  I do know that good and evil exist and I put my faith in Jesus as my saviour to deliver me from evil.

But that just illustrates that your statement about it being logical is meaningless, since if you are asked about what appears illogical, you just state that it doesn't matter.

[ippy]

It's not as though you or any of these numerous christians you speak of have anything to back up the things you all seem to think you know.

Even you must realise that if there were anything conclusive that might secure these things you pretend to know as facts, they would have become extraordinary world news by now and people like me would no longer have any reason to question your beliefs?

I just wonder, don't you think since this big news event hasn't happened and until such times this unlikely extraordinary news event does happen there might be something that's a little bit more than a just a hole, or a fault somewhere in your reasoning?

No doubt if you do respond to my post you'll turn yourself inside out to explain to yourself how to hang on to your deeply held lack logic belief.

ippy

I do not need to turn myself inside out to explain my beliefs.  They are more logical than any alternative belief system.

I think your post aptly demonstrates the success of the Devil in his aim of hiding the truth from most people.

Not a totally unexpected responce Alan, I wish I could say it's interesting to know how you would explain my post to yourself, sad.

Come on Alan, the devil?

When I last posted, just in case you misunderstood me I wasn't suggesting that you need to go and see a psychologist, more that I really think it would be of benifit for you to take a course in the subject, only if you think your eyes are open at the moment, a course in psychology would considerably expand your universe.

Like any profession there are good and bad practitioners, plus those that are unable to understand the treatment, but on a percentage basis an understanding of basic human psychology is mostly a good thing and would imo certainly expand your horizions, whether this devil of yours exists or not.

ippy

[BashfulAnthony]

It's not as though you or any of these numerous christians you speak of have anything to back up the things you all seem to think you know.

Even you must realise that if there were anything conclusive that might secure these things you pretend to know as facts, they would have become extraordinary world news by now and people like me would no longer have any reason to question your beliefs?

I just wonder, don't you think since this big news event hasn't happened and until such times this unlikely extraordinary news event does happen there might be something that's a little bit more than a just a hole, or a fault somewhere in your reasoning?

No doubt if you do respond to my post you'll turn yourself inside out to explain to yourself how to hang on to your deeply held lack logic belief.

ippy

I do not need to turn myself inside out to explain my beliefs.  They are more logical than any alternative belief system.

I think your post aptly demonstrates the success of the Devil in his aim of hiding the truth from most people.

Not a totally unexpected responce Alan, I wish I could say it's interesting to know how you would explain my post to yourself, sad.

Come on Alan, the devil?

When I last posted, just in case you misunderstood me I wasn't suggesting that you need to go and see a psychologist, more that I really think it would be of benifit for you to take a course in the subject, only if you think your eyes are open at the moment, a course in psychology would considerably expand your universe.

Like any profession there are good and bad practitioners, plus those that are unable to understand the treatment, but on a percentage basis an understanding of basic human psychology is mostly a good thing and would imo certainly expand your horizions, whether this devil of yours exists or not.

ippy

The irony of you suggesting that for someone else!!   

[ippy]

It's not as though you or any of these numerous christians you speak of have anything to back up the things you all seem to think you know.

Even you must realise that if there were anything conclusive that might secure these things you pretend to know as facts, they would have become extraordinary world news by now and people like me would no longer have any reason to question your beliefs?

I just wonder, don't you think since this big news event hasn't happened and until such times this unlikely extraordinary news event does happen there might be something that's a little bit more than a just a hole, or a fault somewhere in your reasoning?

No doubt if you do respond to my post you'll turn yourself inside out to explain to yourself how to hang on to your deeply held lack logic belief.

ippy

I do not need to turn myself inside out to explain my beliefs.  They are more logical than any alternative belief system.

I think your post aptly demonstrates the success of the Devil in his aim of hiding the truth from most people.

Not a totally unexpected responce Alan, I wish I could say it's interesting to know how you would explain my post to yourself, sad.

Come on Alan, the devil?

When I last posted, just in case you misunderstood me I wasn't suggesting that you need to go and see a psychologist, more that I really think it would be of benifit for you to take a course in the subject, only if you think your eyes are open at the moment, a course in psychology would considerably expand your universe.

Like any profession there are good and bad practitioners, plus those that are unable to understand the treatment, but on a percentage basis an understanding of basic human psychology is mostly a good thing and would imo certainly expand your horizions, whether this devil of yours exists or not.

ippy

The irony of you suggesting that for someone else!!   

Do you know__________________? B A.

ippy

[BashfulAnthony]

[/quote]

The irony of you suggesting that for someone else!!   

Do you know__________________? B A.

ippy

Haven't a clue what that means.  "Do you know?"

[ippy]

It's not as though you or any of these numerous christians you speak of have anything to back up the things you all seem to think you know.

Even you must realise that if there were anything conclusive that might secure these things you pretend to know as facts, they would have become extraordinary world news by now and people like me would no longer have any reason to question your beliefs?

I just wonder, don't you think since this big news event hasn't happened and until such times this unlikely extraordinary news event does happen there might be something that's a little bit more than a just a hole, or a fault somewhere in your reasoning?

No doubt if you do respond to my post you'll turn yourself inside out to explain to yourself how to hang on to your deeply held lack logic belief.

ippy

I do not need to turn myself inside out to explain my beliefs.  They are more logical than any alternative belief system.

I think your post aptly demonstrates the success of the Devil in his aim of hiding the truth from most people.

Not a totally unexpected responce Alan, I wish I could say it's interesting to know how you would explain my post to yourself, sad.

Come on Alan, the devil?

When I last posted, just in case you misunderstood me I wasn't suggesting that you need to go and see a psychologist, more that I really think it would be of benifit for you to take a course in the subject, only if you think your eyes are open at the moment, a course in psychology would considerably expand your universe.

Like any profession there are good and bad practitioners, plus those that are unable to understand the treatment, but on a percentage basis an understanding of basic human psychology is mostly a good thing and would imo certainly expand your horizions, whether this devil of yours exists or not.

ippy

The irony of you suggesting that for someone else!!   

Do you know__________________? B A.

ippy

Haven't a clue what that means.  "Do you know?"

How surprising.

ippy

[torridon]

I stand by my comment to Alan. I'm not an expert on ancient history but I think I would have heard about some sudden unexplained global awakening of a particular belief set in ancient times.  Rather, what really happens, is that beliefs grow organically, they diverge, fragment, regroup, splinter, evolve, largely in line with changes in the underlying population demographics and changes in political power structures. If we draw out a map of beliefs over time we get a
tree structure remarkably reminiscent of the phylogenetic tree diagrams we get from evolutionary biology.  Here is a nice zoomable one :

http://funki.com.ua/ru/portfolio/lab/world-religions-tree/

Thanks for this interesting link.

I think it reinforces the point I was making that on the evolutionary time scale there has been an instantaneous spiritual awakening of communities of human beings all over the world.  The realisation that we are spiritual beings is a natural human trait.

That wouldn't fit with my understanding of ancient history at all.  The tree diagam might appear to give that impression at first glance but what we have to remember is that we only have written records mostly from the Bronze Age onwards and we have therefore little detail on the beliefs of earlier people; what we are really seeing around that time is the genesis of civilisation, and that in turn is partly due to climate factors. I don't think you will find a single archaeolgist or anthropologist who would support your contention. Also although we don't have written records from earlier times, we can infer religious or spiritual beliefs - neolithic britons for instance placing high value items as offerings in rivers; grave goods to accompany deceased persons into the next life are pretty ubiquitous. 

[Alan Burns]

Any logic which leads to the conclusion that the content of your posts was pre determined by an inevitable chain of events which began with the big bang is clearly flawed.

Why? If there is a flaw in the logic, by all means go point it out, but to just claim that there is one because you don't like the conclusion is no more convincing than you claiming there is a god because you do like that conclusion.

The flaw is in the logic used to come to the conclusion that free will is an illusion.  This conclusion is reached because it assumes that the cause of a free will choice must be determined by the consequence of a previous physical event.  Science can be used to determine the consequences of events, but it can't be used to determine the cause of all events, so there is no means of proving the assumption that free will is an illusion and that every action we choose to make is pre determined.

The reality I perceive is that my free will choices are invoked by my conscious awareness.  I have to admit that I can't understand how anyone could assume that their free will is an illusion because this inextricable combination of free will and self awareness defines what the "I " is in me.

[Shaker]

You probably won't be amazed to learn that this all reads as one great big argument from personal incredulity, Alan.

[Outrider]

The flaw is in the logic used to come to the conclusion that free will is an illusion.  This conclusion is reached because it assumes that the cause of a free will choice must be determined by the consequence of a previous physical event.

No, the reason it's an illusion is because the concept makes no sense. It's not a practical assessment that it's possible but we don't have it, it's a logical investigation that shows you can either have will, or you can have freedom, but you can't have both.

Science can be used to determine the consequences of events, but it can't be used to determine the cause of all events, so there is no means of proving the assumption that free will is an illusion and that every action we choose to make is pre determined.

Why can't science, in principle, determine the cause of all events? Our current capacity is limited, perhaps, but that doesn't mean that principles are outside of scientific exploration's remit.

Regardless of that, if our actions are determined by an initial situation, we don't have free will, whomever hypothetically set the process in motion would have had free will, we'd be automatons in thrall to that initial condition.

The reality I perceive is that my free will choices are invoked by my conscious awareness.

We know from any number of examples, though, that our perception is far from infallible.

I have to admit that I can't understand how anyone could assume that their free will is an illusion because this inextricable combination of free will and self awareness defines what the "I " is in me.

It's counterintuitive. I 'feel' like I'm in charge, it feels like I'm making decisions that my physical body then conducts, but that feeling isn't reinforced by the available evidence.

O.