Searching for GOD...

[Leonard James]

I still can't grasp what you are getting at regarding free will. Our nature/nurture inclines us to behave in a certain way, but we still have the ability to comply with that inclination or go against it. How is that not free will?

[ekim]

I still can't grasp what you are getting at regarding free will. Our nature/nurture inclines us to behave in a certain way, but we still have the ability to comply with that inclination or go against it. How is that not free will?

It might be helpful if O's answer and evidence was related to an example e.g. part of your nurture was related to being inclined to behave according to Christian doctrine but after some consideration you discovered the freedom to choose otherwise and by an act of will freed yourself and acted otherwise.

[torridon]

I still can't grasp what you are getting at regarding free will. Our nature/nurture inclines us to behave in a certain way, but we still have the ability to comply with that inclination or go against it. How is that not free will?

If you decide to go against your habitual inclination, there will always be some underlying reason why you chose to do that, even if you aren't consciously aware of it.

A choice made for absolutely no reason whatsoever, would be a random choice, and therefore nothing to do with 'will'. In fact it wouldn't be a choice it all, it would be an accident.

We can never be free of cause and effect.

[Alan Burns]

I 'feel' like I'm in charge, it feels like I'm making decisions that my physical body then conducts, but that feeling isn't reinforced by the available evidence.

O.

But the available evidence is not conclusive because there is no physical definition for what constitutes our self awareness.

The reality I see is that self awareness is the driving force behind the choices I make, so if we can't fully define self awareness, we can't deny that it controls our free choices.

[Alan Burns]

We can never be free of cause and effect.

I agree with this statement, but we seem to disagree with what may constitute the cause.

Ultimately our "free" choices must be derived from whatever controls and manipulates our conscious thoughts.

[Maeght]

....... we can't deny that it controls our free choices.

If they are controlled by something then how are they free?

[Alan Burns]

No, the reason it's an illusion is because the concept makes no sense. It's not a practical assessment that it's possible but we don't have it, it's a logical investigation that shows you can either have will, or you can have freedom, but you can't have both.

Do you also deny the freedom we have to use our imagination to think beyond the boundaries of our existence? 

[Alan Burns]

....... we can't deny that it controls our free choices.

If they are controlled by something then how are they free?

If they are controled by the free spirit of the human soul they are not bound by the deterministic shackles of our physical world.

[Gordon]

No, the reason it's an illusion is because the concept makes no sense. It's not a practical assessment that it's possible but we don't have it, it's a logical investigation that shows you can either have will, or you can have freedom, but you can't have both.

Do you also deny the freedom we have to use our imagination to think beyond the boundaries of our existence?

You're perfectly free to imagine you have free will (or imagine anything for that matter): the problem comes when you claim that it is a fact that you have free will.

[Alan Burns]

No, the reason it's an illusion is because the concept makes no sense. It's not a practical assessment that it's possible but we don't have it, it's a logical investigation that shows you can either have will, or you can have freedom, but you can't have both.

Do you also deny the freedom we have to use our imagination to think beyond the boundaries of our existence?

You're perfectly free to imagine you have free will (or imagine anything for that matter): the problem comes when you claim that it is a fact that you have free will.

So if we have the freedom to imagine anything there must be something which has the freedom to initiate and control these imaginary thoughts.  Free will also encompases our thoughts as well as our actions.

[torridon]

....... we can't deny that it controls our free choices.

If they are controlled by something then how are they free?

If they are controled by the free spirit of the human soul they are not bound by the deterministic shackles of our physical world.

So the only way you can justify your belief in the impossible and unevidenced concept of free-will is to posit another unevidenced and impossible concept in support of it.

Hmm.  Hope you never get a job in civil engineering.

[Alan Burns]

....... we can't deny that it controls our free choices.

If they are controlled by something then how are they free?

If they are controled by the free spirit of the human soul they are not bound by the deterministic shackles of our physical world.

So the only way you can justify your belief in the impossible and unevidenced concept of free-will is to posit another unevidenced and impossible concept in support of it.

Hmm.  Hope you never get a job in civil engineering.

I have a first class honours in Civil Engineering 

All I am showing is that there is something within you which controls both your imagination and free will, because any free will action must first be thought of in the imagination.

[torridon]

....... we can't deny that it controls our free choices.

If they are controlled by something then how are they free?

If they are controled by the free spirit of the human soul they are not bound by the deterministic shackles of our physical world.

So the only way you can justify your belief in the impossible and unevidenced concept of free-will is to posit another unevidenced and impossible concept in support of it.

Hmm.  Hope you never get a job in civil engineering.

I have a first class honours in Civil Engineering 

All I am showing is that there is something within you which controls both your imagination and free will, because any free will action must first be thought of in the imagination.

   I walked into that.

I bet in your professional life you don't go around creating built structures on imaginary foundations though.

If something controls our imagination or our will, then neither are free.

[Alan Burns]

If something controls our imagination or our will, then neither are free.

I should have said it (our soul) has the freedom to control.  We are not controled - we are the controler.

(I admit to assertion - but I do not know how else to express this fundamental concept of our existence)

[Maeght]

....... we can't deny that it controls our free choices.

If they are controlled by something then how are they free?

If they are controled by the free spirit of the human soul they are not bound by the deterministic shackles of our physical world.

Nice words but in practical terms what do you really mean? Talk me through how this would work please.

[torridon]

If something controls our imagination or our will, then neither are free.

I should have said it (our soul) has the freedom to control.  We are not controled - we are the controler.

(I admit to assertion - but I do not know how else to express this fundamental concept of our existence)

Even if it is a 'soul' making choices, a choice still has to be made on some basis; a choice is made in fulfilment of a need; a choice cannot be made without respect to its parent need. A choice that were free of its parent need would be random, pointless.

[Leonard James]

I still can't grasp what you are getting at regarding free will. Our nature/nurture inclines us to behave in a certain way, but we still have the ability to comply with that inclination or go against it. How is that not free will?

It might be helpful if O's answer and evidence was related to an example e.g. part of your nurture was related to being inclined to behave according to Christian doctrine but after some consideration you discovered the freedom to choose otherwise and by an act of will freed yourself and acted otherwise.

Nurture (my upbringing) caused me to believe in God from an early age, but nature (my ability to reason) made me aware of the falseness of it.

No choice was involved ... I can't believe in something if my reason tells me it is not true.

[Leonard James]

I still can't grasp what you are getting at regarding free will. Our nature/nurture inclines us to behave in a certain way, but we still have the ability to comply with that inclination or go against it. How is that not free will?

If you decide to go against your habitual inclination, there will always be some underlying reason why you chose to do that, even if you aren't consciously aware of it.

I can do it for the very simple reason that I want to show that I can. I am NOT bound to follow my natural inclination ... I can act contrary to it ... and that is free will. Everybody has that ability.

A choice made for absolutely no reason whatsoever, would be a random choice, and therefore nothing to do with 'will'. In fact it wouldn't be a choice it all, it would be an accident.

If I am out for a walk in the woods and come to a fork, I make a random choice as to which branch to take, but I wouldn't describe it as an accident.

We can never be free of cause and effect.

I suppose not, but we still have free will to dis/obey the cause. If my head itches, I can either scratch it or not. That is free will.

[Outrider]

No, the reason it's an illusion is because the concept makes no sense. It's not a practical assessment that it's possible but we don't have it, it's a logical investigation that shows you can either have will, or you can have freedom, but you can't have both.

Do you also deny the freedom we have to use our imagination to think beyond the boundaries of our existence?

Depending on how you interpret the phrase, yes. Individual concepts that we imagine can be things that we have no direct personal experience of, yes, but they're the product of the combination of experiences that we have had in unusual ways.

O.

[Alan Burns]

....... we can't deny that it controls our free choices.

If they are controlled by something then how are they free?

If they are controled by the free spirit of the human soul they are not bound by the deterministic shackles of our physical world.

Nice words but in practical terms what do you really mean? Talk me through how this would work please.

In a nutshell am saying that a conscious choice is not an inevitable pre defined event.  I think Len's last post explains this very well.

[Maeght]

....... we can't deny that it controls our free choices.

If they are controlled by something then how are they free?

If they are controled by the free spirit of the human soul they are not bound by the deterministic shackles of our physical world.

Nice words but in practical terms what do you really mean? Talk me through how this would work please.

In a nutshell am saying that a conscious choice is not an inevitable pre defined event.  I think Len's last post explains this very well.

I know what you are saying, what I was asking was how would that actually work in practice, how would such a system actually work? On what basis would any choice be made?

[Ricky Spanish]

I found God..  he was in a pamphlet that a well-meaning Witness handed to me on the street..  I know, they don't seem to come door to door anymore. Shocking!!

[Leonard James]

I know what you are saying, what I was asking was how would that actually work in practice, how would such a system actually work? On what basis would any choice be made?

The basis of the choice is simply the will of the person making it. Why is that so difficult to understand?

[Maeght]

I know what you are saying, what I was asking was how would that actually work in practice, how would such a system actually work? On what basis would any choice be made?

The basis of the choice is simply the will of the person making it. Why is that so difficult to understand?

I am asking what is the actual process. Just saying it is the will of the person is, as you say, a simple answer and doesn't really address what I am asking. Why is that so difficult to understand?

[Leonard James]

I am asking what is the actual process. Just saying it is the will of the person is, as you say, a simple answer and doesn't really address what I am asking. Why is that so difficult to understand?

If, by "process", you are asking how does the brain work when we choose between options, I have no idea. You would have to ask a neurologist.

Surely the only thing that matters is that we CAN make choices.