Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

I don't think anyone's denying will - just the idea that will is somehow 'free'. We are the processors that determine what our bodies will do, but the algorithm in that processor is itself an inevitable consequence of the events of our lives and our inherent nature.

O.

Of course human will is influenced by past events and built in instincts, but it is not fully controlled by them.  The human soul has control through the power of free will to be able to choose what memories, what instincts, what abilities to put into use during its conscious moments.  We are fully aware of our past influences and our abilities, and we have the ability to freely manipuplate these to achieve something we actually wish for.  This is the free will of the human soul.

[torridon]

Isn't there the will to select from multiple prior events to try to influence the present or future?  Although it may not be free from the past, there is intention and there is the possibility of selection and rejection.  The opposite is to be a will-less fatalist just unconsciously drifting from event to event.  Is this how you see your life?

I might have a desire to 'select' or 'change', but I didn't choose that desire, it formed within me and all I can do is try to act upon it.  It all goes back to Schopenhaur, we try to get what we want but we do not choose what to want in the first place. Whatever my will is, it has to be ultimately the product of cause and effect working through me. We all feel free, but it must be an illusion.

[Outrider]

OK, I misunderstood.  Are we not free to exercise that will to choose to alter that processor and its contents which have been built upon past events?

That depends on your perspective - at any given moment in time, the person we are makes a choice from the available options. In that sense we have will and can choose.

The person we are at that moment in time, though, is a product of our nature at birth, and the sum of the experiences to which we've been exposed. Although we can choose at any given moment in time from the available options, which choice we make is entirely determined by previous events - we are a conduit through which that inevitable consequence occurs in the universe.

O.

[torridon]

Of course human will is influenced by past events and built in instincts, but it is not fully controlled by them.  The human soul has control through the power of free will to be able to choose what memories, what instincts, what abilities to put into use during its conscious moments.  We are fully aware of our past influences and our abilities, and we have the ability to freely manipuplate these to achieve something we actually wish for.

and you have no control over what you wish for. Your 'will' is the manifestation of your desires, and it would make no sense to be free of that.  If you make choices that are free of your desires then they are random, pointless.

[Outrider]

Of course human will is influenced by past events and built in instincts, but it is not fully controlled by them.

Based on what? The evidence does not support your conclusion. The logical assessment does not allow room for your conclusion.

The human soul has control through the power of free will to be able to choose what memories, what instincts, what abilities to put into use during its conscious moments.

Firstly, what soul? Secondly, even if it could, how does it choose which ones to apply and which to ignore at any given time? That decision is, itself, either predicated on prior experience and underlying nature, or it's random; it's either free, or it's will, but it can't be both.

We are fully aware of our past influences and our abilities, and we have the ability to freely manipuplate these to achieve something we actually wish for.  This is the free will of the human soul.

No, it's the subjective experience of will - that it feels free doesn't make it free. It's our lack of awareness of the mechanics of how those prior experiences have manipulated us that leads to the disjunction between our feeling and the logical and scientific assessment.

O.

[Maeght]

Of course human will is influenced by past events and built in instincts, but it is not fully controlled by them.  The human soul has control through the power of free will to be able to choose what memories, what instincts, what abilities to put into use during its conscious moments.  We are fully aware of our past influences and our abilities, and we have the ability to freely manipuplate these to achieve something we actually wish for.  This is the free will of the human soul.

Not fully controlled - right, so how controlled is it? What % control is there?

How does the soul make any decisions and choices?

[ekim]

That depends on your perspective - at any given moment in time, the person we are makes a choice from the available options. In that sense we have will and can choose.

The person we are at that moment in time, though, is a product of our nature at birth, and the sum of the experiences to which we've been exposed. Although we can choose at any given moment in time from the available options, which choice we make is entirely determined by previous events - we are a conduit through which that inevitable consequence occurs in the universe.

O.

So are you saying that we have the consciousness to review previously stored events, are able to freely choose from them as options but not able to modify, delete or enhance them and we have to accept that they will impose upon us and nullify free choice?

[Outrider]

So are you saying that we have the consciousness to review previously stored events, are able to freely choose from them as options but not able to modify, delete or enhance them and we have to accept that they will impose upon us and nullify free choice?

We have awareness of the decision. We have imperfect awareness of the history that has influenced our brain structure that will make the decision. We are able to conceive of the choices available to us, but the reality is that we have no actual choice: the reality is that there is only one choice we will make, given a particular set of start conditions over which we have no influence.

O.

[Alan Burns]

and you have no control over what you wish for. Your 'will' is the manifestation of your desires, and it would make no sense to be free of that.  If you make choices that are free of your desires then they are random, pointless.

But we have the freedom to choose which desires to fulfil.

[ekim]

We have awareness of the decision. We have imperfect awareness of the history that has influenced our brain structure that will make the decision. We are able to conceive of the choices available to us, but the reality is that we have no actual choice: the reality is that there is only one choice we will make, given a particular set of start conditions over which we have no influence.

O.

I'm always suspicious when somebody declares what 'reality' is, so you'll have to have patience with me.  You are making the human predicament sound like a snooker ball being hit by a cue over which it has no influence.  Who is to say that we have no influence over start conditions?  Why can't we choose to modify the start conditions, if not of ourselves, of others around us?

[torridon]

But we have the freedom to choose which desires to fulfil.

We will choose the desire which is uppermost; that is just a matter of definition.  Whatever we choose at any moment, that defines our uppermost desire.  I don't decide on some nul basis what my desires should be.

[Alan Burns]

Based on what? The evidence does not support your conclusion. The logical assessment does not allow room for your conclusion.

Firstly, what soul? Secondly, even if it could, how does it choose which ones to apply and which to ignore at any given time? That decision is, itself, either predicated on prior experience and underlying nature, or it's random; it's either free, or it's will, but it can't be both.

No, it's the subjective experience of will - that it feels free doesn't make it free. It's our lack of awareness of the mechanics of how those prior experiences have manipulated us that leads to the disjunction between our feeling and the logical and scientific assessment.

O.

Human creativity aptly shows how we can manipulate our abilities and resources to achieve something which initially exists in human imagination.  This form of creativity can't be defined in the deterministic scenario because the driving forces are just reactions to previous events driven by the unintelligent forces of nature. 

The soul can't be defined in physical terms, but it perceives, it inspires, it manipulates, it controls.

[Alan Burns]

Not fully controlled - right, so how controlled is it? What % control is there?

How does the soul make any decisions and choices?

I can't define how it makes choices, but the choices exist because I choose them.  I am free to choose whatever is needed to fulfil my will.

[ekim]

I can't define how it makes choices, but the choices exist because I choose them.  I am free to choose whatever is needed to fulfil my will.

Shouldn't you be choosing whatever is needed to fulfil God's will?

[Alan Burns]

In other words, the brain!

But without the soul, the physical brain is just a collection of atomic particles obeying the rules of science and controlled entirely by past events.  To have control, inspiration, manipulation, awareness and imagination you need something which is not shackled by the deterministic rules of science which interacts with the brain.

[Alan Burns]

Shouldn't you be choosing whatever is needed to fulfil God's will?

I should, but I have the freedom not to if I so wish.

[Nearly Sane]

But without the soul, the physical brain is just a collection of atomic particles obeying the rules of science and controlled entirely by past events.  To have control, inspiration, manipulation, awareness and imagination you need something which is not shackled by the deterministic rules of science which interacts with the brain.

The assertatron returneth

[Alan Burns]

We will choose the desire which is uppermost; that is just a matter of definition.  Whatever we choose at any moment, that defines our uppermost desire.  I don't decide on some nul basis what my desires should be.

But in the deterministic world how can you define desire?  Surely it is linked to will.  If you have to consciously think about choosing a desire to fulfil is is not deterministic.

[torridon]

I can't define how it makes choices, but the choices exist because I choose them.  I am free to choose whatever is needed to fulfil my will.

Evasion and assertion; all you are doing in skating round the issue rather than engaging.

If you make a choice then there must be some basis for your choice. If a choice does not serve some reason, then it is random.  If it serves a reason then it is not free.

[Maeght]

I can't define how it makes choices, but the choices exist because I choose them.  I am free to choose whatever is needed to fulfil my will.

We of course make choices but it is how we make choices which is the question and how free they are. That you cannot suggest a mechanism for the soul's involvement and how any decision or choice can actullay be free is quite telling and highlights that this is a belief and one based on your theology. But then we have reached that conclusion many times before.

[Maeght]

Human creativity aptly shows how we can manipulate our abilities and resources to achieve something which initially exists in human imagination.  This form of creativity can't be defined in the deterministic scenario because the driving forces are just reactions to previous events driven by the unintelligent forces of nature.

Creativity can be seen as application of previous experiences and influences. Nothing in creativity to suggest the existence of a soul.

The soul can't be defined in physical terms, but it perceives, it inspires, it manipulates, it controls.

You believe.

[torridon]

But in the deterministic world how can you define desire?  Surely it is linked to will.  If you have to consciously think about choosing a desire to fulfil is is not deterministic.

I might mull over a complex decision, like buying a house, for a long time. Maybe I need to clarify my thoughts on the matter.  The decision I eventually come to reflects what I want to do at the end of the day, but also I have no control over what it is that I want at the end of the day.  That period of contemplation is really about clarifying my desires, but I don't choose them. Likewise I find that I like the taste of Marmite, but I don't choose to like it. Likewise I find my favourite colour is blue; I don't choose it, I discover it. Emotional states form within us and we try to act on them. Action and reaction.

[Alan Burns]

Evasion and assertion; all you are doing in skating round the issue rather than engaging.

If you make a choice then there must be some basis for your choice. If a choice does not serve some reason, then it is random.  If it serves a reason then it is not free.

If I have two feasible options, I can use my conscious awareness of these options to make a conscious choice.  I am free to choose either of the two options to fulfil my will at that moment, regardless of which is technically the best option in terms of reasoning.  The free will I perceive is inextricably linked to our conscious awareness.

The alternative scenario you put forward implies that decisions are made before we become aware of them, so our conscious awareness can have no influence on any decision we make.

[torridon]

If I have two feasible options, I can use my conscious awareness of these options to make a conscious choice.  I am free to choose either of the two options to fulfil my will at that moment, regardless of which is technically the best option in terms of reasoning.  The free will I perceive is inextricably linked to our conscious awareness.

Yes, that is how it feels.

The alternative scenario you put forward implies that decisions are made before we become aware of them, so our conscious awareness can have no influence on any decision we make.

Yes, that is how it is.

Well, sort of.

We cannot write off conscious experience as if it were of no value. Consciousness evolved in the Cambrian 520 million years ago, and now every vertebrate on the planet has some form of it so clearly it is of immense survival value. Given that neurobiologists estimate that 95% of mind/brain function is under the hood,  its perhaps best to understand the relationship between subconscious and conscious as something like executive and adviser, with the really serious decisions being taken deep down, and in certain types of decision making, typically complex ones requiring extended contemplation, the richer heightened sentience of conscious experience doubtless informs the decision making process. However all that is merely about the mechanics underlying a decision making process in a sentient being, it says nothing to endorse the notion of 'freedom' of will which at base is a conceptual problem in that any choice, however it is made, is made to serve a purpose, to satisfy a need, and so inherently cannot be truly free, by definition. If it serves no purpose, then it is random. Those are our only two possibilities, determinism and randomness.

[Outrider]

I'm always suspicious when somebody declares what 'reality' is, so you'll have to have patience with me.  You are making the human predicament sound like a snooker ball being hit by a cue over which it has no influence.  Who is to say that we have no influence over start conditions?  Why can't we choose to modify the start conditions, if not of ourselves, of others around us?

Imagine a newly fertilised embryo. It has, in the genetic combination it has inherited, certain predispositions - it has inherited those, it has no control over them.

Even within the womb it is exposed to sensations at various stages, and to hormones and nutrients of various levels which make subtle adjustments to its growth, it has no control over those either.

As the brain starts to develop, it starts to register input from the budding sensory organs, and it has no control over those inputs which begin to trigger brain development.

That partial development determines how the brain processes the next set of inputs, which updates the brain before the next set, and so on, and so on. We are the sum of those experiences updating the brain's architecture, that sense of 'we' is a subjective experience of that brain doing that processing.

When we think we're in control we're a feedback loop in that brain, and even that feedback loop shapes the architecture for the next iteration.

Who is to say we have no control - it's the fact that there's no mechanism by which something else can get in to the process. Even if it could, what would it do? It would either be some other mechanism that's dependent upon start conditions updated by experience, and therefore no different to that deterministic brain, or it would have some randomness in it - which would be free, but not will.

O.