Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

I have been blessed with an awareness of God which will not allow me to doubt His existence

What a special little cupcake.

[torridon]

And we have the ability to break these rules if we so wish. 

and such a 'wish' would be evidence of cause and effect operating through us. We don't invent desires out of thin air, they result from something prior.

[Alan Burns]

and such a 'wish' would be evidence of cause and effect operating through us. We don't invent desires out of thin air, they result from something prior.

I think we disagree with the source of the wish.  You claim it is pre determined by past events, but I perceive it to be generated from conscious awareness of the human soul which is not defined by materialistic determinism.

[Outrider]

I think we disagree with the source of the wish.  You claim it is pre determined by past events, but I perceive it to be generated from conscious awareness of the human soul which is not defined by materialistic determinism.

How do you 'percieve' it? You don't, you claim it, you feel it, but you don't 'percieve' it, because if you did we'd be able to measure it - all of our senses can be replicated by independent, mechanical devices. Or are you suggesting a previously unknown sense as well?

O.

[torridon]

I think we disagree with the source of the wish.  You claim it is pre determined by past events, but I perceive it to be generated from conscious awareness of the human soul which is not defined by materialistic determinism.

Given that there is no evidence for 'souls', you are just peddling make-believe; at least my understanding is drawn from observation of real things and works across the whole spectrum of life.  The choice is, whether to be a fantasist or realist, and I don't think entertaining fantasies is suitable in the long term; reality has a habit of intruding sooner or later.

[Alan Burns]

How do you 'percieve' it? You don't, you claim it, you feel it, but you don't 'percieve' it, because if you did we'd be able to measure it - all of our senses can be replicated by independent, mechanical devices. Or are you suggesting a previously unknown sense as well?

Conscious perception itself is still a mystery which can't be defined in science:

“     It must be confessed, moreover, that perception, and that which depends on it, are inexplicable by mechanical causes, that is, by figures and motions, And, supposing that there were a mechanism so constructed as to think, feel and have perception, we might enter it as into a mill. And this granted, we should only find on visiting it, pieces which push one against another, but never anything by which to explain a perception. This must be sought, therefore, in the simple substance, and not in the composite or in the machine.     ”
—Gottfried Leibniz, Monadology

And 400 years on:

"The evolution of the capacity to simulate seems to have culminated in subjective consciousness. Why this should have happened is, to me, the most profound mystery facing modern biology"   - Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene

In 2004, eight neuroscientists felt it was too soon for a definition of consciousness. They wrote an apology in "Human Brain Function":

"We have no idea how consciousness emerges from the physical activity of the brain and we do not know whether consciousness can emerge from non-biological systems, such as computers ... At this point the reader will expect to find a careful and precise definition of consciousness. You will be disappointed. Consciousness has not yet become a scientific term that can be defined in this way. Currently we all use the term consciousness in many different and often ambiguous ways. Precise definitions of different aspects of consciousness will emerge ... but to make precise definitions at this stage is premature."

[floo]

Conscious perception itself is still a mystery which can't be defined in science:


I don't know whether that is true, but if so science might well be able to define it in the future.

[Alan Burns]

What is the difference, if any, between the term, 'soul' and consciousness?

My view is that conscious perception is your soul's window into this universe.

[Outrider]

In 2004, eight neuroscientists felt it was too soon for a definition of consciousness. They wrote an apology in "Human Brain Function":

"We have no idea how consciousness emerges from the physical activity of the brain and we do not know whether consciousness can emerge from non-biological systems, such as computers ... At this point the reader will expect to find a careful and precise definition of consciousness. You will be disappointed. Consciousness has not yet become a scientific term that can be defined in this way. Currently we all use the term consciousness in many different and often ambiguous ways. Precise definitions of different aspects of consciousness will emerge ... but to make precise definitions at this stage is premature."

You'll note, though, that although they can't say HOW consciousness emerges from the physical activity of the brain, they still accept the notion that it does.

O.

[Maeght]

That we don't yet understand consciousness or how it evolved does not mean that it is impossible that it did evolve and is simply a function of the brain. You seem to be the one making claims and saying that things are impossible however. How does this stack up with the comments you have quoted?

[Alan Burns]

That we don't yet understand consciousness or how it evolved does not mean that it is impossible that it did evolve and is simply a function of the brain. You seem to be the one making claims and saying that things are impossible however. How does this stack up with the comments you have quoted?

The quoted comments are just a reminder that science does not explain everything.  You may choose to wait to see if science can explain conscious awareness, or you are free to open your mind to the possibility that it could be the human soul which gives us conscious awareness and free will.

[Shaker]

The quoted comments are just a reminder that science does not explain everything. You may choose to wait to see if science can explain conscious awareness, or you are free to open your mind to the possibility that it could be the human soul which gives us conscious awareness and free will.

Some of us like to know whether our beliefs about the nature of reality match up to that reality and are supported by evidence, though, Alan.

Fortunately we have a highly efficient tool for that very job.

[Alan Burns]

So what is your definition of a soul and where does it live in the body?

As I have said previously, I am not able to define what the human soul is comprised of.  I can only suggest that it is the source of our conscious awareness and free will.

[Outrider]

The quoted comments are just a reminder that science does not explain everything.  You may choose to wait to see if science can explain conscious awareness, or you are free to open your mind to the possibility that it could be the human soul which gives us conscious awareness and free will.

I'm open to the possibility of a soul, but you'll need something to justify the claim or I'll be riddled with unevidenced claims from astrology to zoroastrianism.

O.

[Outrider]

As I have said previously, I am not able to define what the human soul is comprised of.  I can only suggest that it is the source of our conscious awareness and free will.

It's not just that you're not able to entirely explain the soul, as we've seen we can't entirely explain consciousness. You can't even demonstrate a soul, we can demonstrate consciousness.

You don't give us a reason to accept souls as an idea, you just make the claim to fill a possible gap in the current scientific explanation.

O.

[torridon]

The quoted comments are just a reminder that science does not explain everything.  You may choose to wait to see if science can explain conscious awareness, or you are free to open your mind to the possibility that it could be the human soul which gives us conscious awareness and free will.

But you arbitrarily exclude other animals from your 'soul' hypothesis and yet they are clearly conscious also when not asleep.  Gaping hole in your theory, this is, Alan.

Not to mention the inconvenient facts that you have failed to show what your soul is made of, how it affixes to a body, when it gets attached to a life, how it interacts with the material body, how come it doesn't show up on any instrumentation, where are souls before our body gets born, what about human hybrids, say a half neanderthal/half human does he get a full soul, or just a half ?  what is the soul doing while the body is asleep ?  That should keep you busy for a while, I've got more when you are ready.

[Alan Burns]

It's not just that you're not able to entirely explain the soul, as we've seen we can't entirely explain consciousness. You can't even demonstrate a soul, we can demonstrate consciousness.

You don't give us a reason to accept souls as an idea, you just make the claim to fill a possible gap in the current scientific explanation.

O.

The concept of a soul which can transcend death has existed throughout five thousand years of human history, and, contrary to some popular belief, its existence does not contradict modern scientific discoveries.

[Shaker]

The concept of a soul which can transcend death has existed throughout five thousand years of human history, and, contrary to some popular belief, its existence does not contradict modern scientific discoveries.

Argumentum ad antiquitatem and argumentum ad ignorantiam. Any more?

[BashfulAnthony]

But you arbitrarily exclude other animals from your 'soul' hypothesis and yet they are clearly conscious also when not asleep.  Gaping hole in your theory, this is, Alan.

Not to mention the inconvenient facts that you have failed to show what your soul is made of, how it affixes to a body, when it gets attached to a life, how it interacts with the material body, how come it doesn't show up on any instrumentation, where are souls before our body gets born, what about human hybrids, say a half neanderthal/half human does he get a full soul, or just a half ?  what is the soul doing while the body is asleep ?  That should keep you busy for a while, I've got more when you are ready.

If my dogs don't have a soul, and aren't going to Heaven, I ain't going either!   

[Maeght]

The quoted comments are just a reminder that science does not explain everything.  You may choose to wait to see if science can explain conscious awareness, or you are free to open your mind to the possibility that it could be the human soul which gives us conscious awareness and free will.

So why, in light of the quoted comments which state that we currently do not understand consciousness or how it could have evolved, can you insist on stating that certain things are impossible? That is my question.

[torridon]

The concept of a soul which can transcend death has existed throughout five thousand years of human history, and, contrary to some popular belief, its existence does not contradict modern scientific discoveries.

Oh really ?  Well at the very least it would indicate profound omissions from our theories of matter; the Dirac equation at least would need a new term to describe how immaterial interacts with material matter

[Alan Burns]

If my dogs don't have a soul, and aren't going to Heaven, I ain't going either!

The probability that they are not accountable for any deliberate bad bahaviour should enable them to get to heaven.   

[BashfulAnthony]

The probability that they are not accountable for any deliberate bad bahaviour should enable them to get to heaven.   

Well mine have all been the gentlest and most innocent creatures.  So that's all right then.     

[Alan Burns]

Oh really ?  Well at the very least it would indicate profound omissions from our theories of matter; the Dirac equation at least would need a new term to describe how immaterial interacts with material matter

There is plenty of scope for interaction through quantum mechanics.

[Shaker]

There is plenty of scope for interaction through quantum mechanics.

How?