Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

How?

Quantum events can occur without any discernable cause.  The cause of these events might be something which science can't detect - such as a spiritually induced act of free will.

[Shaker]

So without any methodology at work, how do you propose we tell the difference between the real but undetectable and the nonexistent?

[Bubbles]

This thread has had 63807 views 

[BashfulAnthony]

This thread has had 63000+ views 

Obviously there's been nothing on telly then.   

[SusanDoris]

Argumentum ad antiquitatem and argumentum ad ignorantiam. Any more?

I was just beginning to think that I really must avoid reading any of AB's posts, but this made me laugh instead - so thank you!!

[torridon]

So without any methodology at work, how do you propose we tell the difference between the real but undetectable and the nonexistent?

Aw, come on Shakes, that smacks of empiricism, strictly reserved for people who want to know what really going on.

[Alan Burns]

So without any methodology at work, how do you propose we tell the difference between the real but undetectable and the nonexistent?

The reliable predictability of material behaviour at the atomic level is apparently dependent on the probability of certain quantum events taking place at a specific place and time.  This led to Enstein's famous quote -  "God does not play dice".  I would suggest that the cause of these quantum events is not random, but defined by an undetectable source which is specifically induced to give reality the nature we perceive.  In other words, most quantum events are controlled by God's will.  And He may have delegated other quantum events to be controlled by other sources of free will.

[Shaker]

The reliable predictability of material behaviour at the atomic level is apparently dependent on the probability of certain quantum events taking place at a specific place and time.  This led to Enstein's famous quote -  "God does not play dice".  I would suggest that the cause of these quantum events is not random, but defined by an undetectable source which is specifically induced to give reality the nature we perceive.  In other words, most quantum events are controlled by God's will.  And He may have delegated other quantum events to be controlled by other sources of free will.

In other words, Sparky Marks's strange brew of a few poorly or even misunderstood scientific terms picked up from somewhere with a whole lot of quantum woo a la Deepak Chopra.

Great.

[Outrider]

The concept of a soul which can transcend death has existed throughout five thousand years of human history, and, contrary to some popular belief, its existence does not contradict modern scientific discoveries.

Well, varying vague ideas which could be seen as variants of a 'soul' concept have existed, yes, much as stories explaining rainbows have been replete through human history. I'm not aware anyone has said that the idea of a soul is disproven by science, just that it's outside of science's remit given that no-one can give any supporting evidence for it.

It's not necessary for science, science has a perfectly serviceable explanation without it - outside of science, though, apart from it making you feel better to think that it's real, do you have any basis for the idea?

O.

[torridon]

The reliable predictability of material behaviour at the atomic level is apparently dependent on the probability of certain quantum events taking place at a specific place and time.  This led to Enstein's famous quote -  "God does not play dice".  I would suggest that the cause of these quantum events is not random, but defined by an undetectable source which is specifically induced to give reality the nature we perceive.  In other words, most quantum events are controlled by God's will.  And He may have delegated other quantum events to be controlled by other sources of free will.

Why would God seek to hide his power in the undetectable origins of quantum events. People in acncient times thought God intervened with fire and brimstone, wiping out entire Canannite populations.  Now it seems he uses his power only through means that are undetectable by science.

[Outrider]

The reliable predictability of material behaviour at the atomic level is apparently dependent on the probability of certain quantum events taking place at a specific place and time.  This led to Enstein's famous quote -  "God does not play dice".  I would suggest that the cause of these quantum events is not random, but defined by an undetectable source which is specifically induced to give reality the nature we perceive.  In other words, most quantum events are controlled by God's will.  And He may have delegated other quantum events to be controlled by other sources of free will.

If that were the case, if it weren't random, we'd see a differentiation in the patterns of activity - that's a measurable claim. Do you have any evidence of that happening?

And still you resort to free will, but you've not actually explained how that is anything other predestined ideas and purely random components. What is 'free will'?

O.

[Alan Burns]

If that were the case, if it weren't random, we'd see a differentiation in the patterns of activity - that's a measurable claim. Do you have any evidence of that happening?

If quantum events were truly random atoms and molecules would not exist.

Free will is simply using conscious awareness to induce an event.

[Shaker]

If quantum events were truly random atoms and molecules would not exist.

Why not?

[Alan Burns]

Why would God seek to hide his power in the undetectable origins of quantum events. People in acncient times thought God intervened with fire and brimstone, wiping out entire Canannite populations.  Now it seems he uses his power only through means that are undetectable by science.

Well there must be something inducing the quantum events which define the material reality we see at the atomic level, and it is not detectable by current science.

[Shaker]

Well there must be something inducing the quantum events which define the material reality we see at the atomic level, and it is not detectable by current science.

But instead of saying "Search me, squire," you say that it's God.

[Alan Burns]

Why not?

Ask a quantum physicist

[Shaker]

Ask a quantum physicist

I'm asking you, Alan.

[Alan Burns]

I'm asking you, Alan.

I was just quoting what I have been told by a quantum physicist - that the stability of atoms and molecules are dependent on specific quantum events occuring at the right time and in the right places.

[Outrider]

If quantum events were truly random atoms and molecules would not exist.

Because?

Free will is simply using conscious awareness to induce an event.

Free will is nonsensical. Conscious awareness is deterministic.

O.

[Alan Burns]

I was just beginning to think that I really must avoid reading any of AB's posts

If I was a non believer, I too would feel uncomfortable reading my posts. 

[Alan Burns]

Conscious awareness is deterministic.

The senses that feed conscious awareness are deterministic, but the awareness itself can't be defined in deterministic terms, or any physical terms for that matter.

[Shaker]

If I was a non believer, I too would feel uncomfortable reading my posts. 

It's not discomfort, Alan.

[Outrider]

The senses that feed conscious awareness are deterministic, but the awareness itself can't be defined in deterministic terms, or any physical terms for that matter.

Firstly, can you demonstrate anything else? Secondly, we can link consciousness extremely strongly with brain activity, which is deterministic, without needing anything else to explain it and without any spurious activity - why presume anything else is involved?

O.

[Alan Burns]

Quote from: Alan Burns on November 22, 2015, 07:04:01 PM

    If quantum events were truly random atoms and molecules would not exist.

Because?

I can't remember the exact details, but my recollection is that we have to rely on the probability that certain quantum events will occur to prevent atoms from imploding.

[Outrider]

If I was a non believer, I too would feel uncomfortable reading my posts. 

Do you feel uncomfortable reading about Thor slaying the world-snake and bringing about Ragnarok?

That's how I feel about Jesus claims.

O.