Searching for GOD...

[Outrider]

A conscious choice is not random.  Neither is a sub conscious choice.
You maintain that a conscious choice is entirely pre determined by past events, which in effect makes it no different to a sub conscious choice.

Any choice we make will be influenced by past events, but I maintain that a conscious choice is not entirely defined by past events.  There is the element of conscious freedom to make a choice, and it is not random but defined by whatever constitutes our self awareness.

Then how is it a 'choice'? If it's not related to previous events, not shaped by that sum of experience, then how is it a choice at all?

What does that 'freedom' mean? Regardless of the mechanics, regardless of soul/spirit vs brain, imagine you at the point of making a decision; you, at this moment in time, have a particular set of experiences, and a particular underlying nature that has influenced how you have interpreted those experiences to shape who you are. At the moment you make the decision, those experiences and that nature combine to shape the decision-making process - how can that result be any different than what you make? Either you decide 'chocolate ice-cream' or you decide 'strawberry ice-cream', yes, but you decide that either on your experience (shaped by mood at the time) or by... what?

What is the other element that adds 'freedom' to the decision, and what is IT based on that makes this element non-random. And being based on something, how is that freed from prior events?

That's the point - everything is either determined by prior events or it's not, and if it's not then it's random. Will is the conscious decision making based on prior events, but it's not free. Random would be free, but it would not be will.

O.

[Alan Burns]

- but there is no evidence for such a non material thing and if there was such a thing how would it make decisions which were free of prior events? By what process would it make any choice if not by reference to previous experiences and information?

Our self conscious awareness is the big mystery in this scenario.  Our awareness can certainly refer to previous experiences, but ulimately there must be a choice to make.  The fact that we can perceive this as a conscious choice begs the question - What is consciousness?

The evidence for our conscious awareness not being a material thing lies with the fact that we perceive our consciousness to be free to make a choice.  If this perception is true, our conscious awareness is not entirely driven by deterministic events.

[Maeght]

Our self conscious awareness is the big mystery in this scenario.  Our awareness can certainly refer to previous experiences, but ulimately there must be a choice to make.  The fact that we can perceive this as a conscious choice begs the question - What is consciousness?

The evidence for our conscious awareness not being a material thing lies with the fact that we perceive our consciousness to be free to make a choice.  If this perception is true, our conscious awareness is not entirely driven by deterministic events.

So your evidence is that it seems to us like we are making a free conscious choices. Not much in terms of evidence really is it, particularily when you follow it up with 'if this perception is true'.

[Alan Burns]

Then how is it a 'choice'? If it's not related to previous events, not shaped by that sum of experience, then how is it a choice at all?

It is how the human soul works.  It allows us to override the logic of previous events and experiences if we so wish.  We have the power to choose our own destiny, to define our own future, to interact with this world and not just be driven by it.  It makes us accountable for our actions.  It allows us to choose between good and evil, or between love and hate.  It is what our humanity was made to do - to excercise our choice.

[Alan Burns]

So your evidence is that it seems to us like we are making a free conscious choices. Not much in terms of evidence really is it, particularily when you follow it up with 'if this perception is true'.

The ability to use my conscious awareness to drive my choices in this world is at the very root of my perception of reality.  It is all the evidence I need.

[Outrider]

It is how the human soul works.  It allows us to override the logic of previous events and experiences if we so wish.

Based on what? How does that process occur? What is being used as the predicates to decide 'this time we're going to over-ride previous experience', and what are the influences on that?

We have the power to choose our own destiny, to define our own future, to interact with this world and not just be driven by it.  It makes us accountable for our actions.  It allows us to choose between good and evil, or between love and hate.  It is what our humanity was made to do - to excercise our choice.

That's just what you want to be true, not necessarily what is.

O.

[ippy]

They have to understand the concepts involved, and in my experience, children at that age have little idea what religion and belief, or unbelief, mean.  They still think in terms of God as a white-haired man, sitting on a cloud.  They simply do not understand.

B A can you prove he isn't a white-haired man, sitting on a cloud?

ippy

[Alan Burns]

Based on what? How does that process occur? What is being used as the predicates to decide 'this time we're going to over-ride previous experience', and what are the influences on that?

That's just what you want to be true, not necessarily what is.

O.

The soul is not a machine.  There is no physical process involved, just conscious awareness and the will to interact with this world via the brain.  Whatever perceives the content of our brain cells to give us awareness can also interact with the brain to implement the conscious acts of free will.  Without this soul we are just a biological machine which can only react to events in deterministic fashion with niether the mechanism nor the need for conscious awareness.

[ippy]

It is how the human soul works.  It allows us to override the logic of previous events and experiences if we so wish.  We have the power to choose our own destiny, to define our own future, to interact with this world and not just be driven by it.  It makes us accountable for our actions.  It allows us to choose between good and evil, or between love and hate.  It is what our humanity was made to do - to excercise our choice.

NM keeps asserting things in the way you do, are you happy to be grouped in with the likes of NM, Sass, ~TW~, Spud, AO and Vlad?  All first class.

ippy

[Outrider]

The soul is not a machine.  There is no physical process involved, just conscious awareness and the will to interact with this world via the brain.

My question is independent of the 'hardware', it's about the method.

Whatever perceives the content of our brain cells to give us awareness can also interact with the brain to implement the conscious acts of free will.

Again, what is that 'whatever' basing its decisions on, though? And, in doing so, how is it free of those influences? If it's not basing them on anything, how is it not a random effect?

Without this soul we are just a biological machine which can only react to events in deterministic fashion with niether the mechanism nor the need for conscious awareness.

I wouldn't say 'just' - we're amazingly complex, wonderful, spectacular biological machines - but essentially yes are machines.

I don't see that this means we aren't consciously aware, it's that the implications of that awareness don't include free will. It's a little like saying that, because you can't change the course of a film, suddenly you aren't watching it?

O.

[King Oberon]

Amusing Mr Burns... 

Here's a couple of questions ...

Do you believe in evolution? If so do you believe animals have souls?

If so if we evolved from animals where did our soul come from? Do you grow one?

Obviously if your a creationist then ignore all the above and let's talk dino's 

[Maeght]

The ability to use my conscious awareness to drive my choices in this world is at the very root of my perception of reality.  It is all the evidence I need.

That's fine, but I therefore think you need to accept that it is something you want to believe in and to not make all the statements you do about this or that being impossible and presenting your beliefs as facts.

[torridon]

The soul is not a machine.  There is no physical process involved, just conscious awareness and the will to interact with this world via the brain.  Whatever perceives the content of our brain cells to give us awareness can also interact with the brain to implement the conscious acts of free will.  Without this soul we are just a biological machine which can only react to events in deterministic fashion with niether the mechanism nor the need for conscious awareness.

Every vertebrate on the planet has some form of conscious awareness Alan, maybe not of the same particular qualities as mine or yours, but some form of it nonetheless; every fish, every mammal, every bird, every reptile

[torridon]

The ability to use my conscious awareness to drive my choices in this world is at the very root of my perception of reality.  It is all the evidence I need.

You keep forgetting, consciousness is retrospective, not to mention pretty insignificant in terms of our overall mental apparatus.

[Alan Burns]

Do you believe in evolution? If so do you believe animals have souls?

If so if we evolved from animals where did our soul come from? Do you grow one?

I believe we gradually evolved from primitive life forms, with our Creator intimately involved in the process.  A few thousand years ago a truly amazing development occurred when the human race aquired the gift of free will together with an awareness of the Creator.

[Alan Burns]

Every vertebrate on the planet has some form of conscious awareness Alan, maybe not of the same particular qualities as mine or yours, but some form of it nonetheless; every fish, every mammal, every bird, every reptile

Whatever form of conscious awareness exists on this planet is not definable in scientific terms.  Atoms and molecules react - they do not perceive.

[Alan Burns]

That's fine, but I therefore think you need to accept that it is something you want to believe in and to not make all the statements you do about this or that being impossible and presenting your beliefs as facts.

It is not just what I want to believe in - it is the only feasible explanation for my awareness of my existence.

[Maeght]

No it really isn't, and since you have not provided any evidence that that is the case then it can only be a belief.

[floo]

It is not just what I want to believe in - it is the only feasible explanation for my awareness of my existence.

In your opinion, it is not a fact!

[Gordon]

It is not just what I want to believe in - it is the only feasible explanation for my awareness of my existence.

It is your own contrived invention, Alan - all this 'soul = awareness' nonsense is just the fallacious narrative you've created in order to manufacture a 'gap' so as to insert your particular formulation of 'God' into.

[Alan Burns]

Again, what is that 'whatever' basing its decisions on, though? And, in doing so, how is it free of those influences? If it's not basing them on anything, how is it not a random effect?

The desire to do something is certainly influenced by our built in instincts and learnt experiences.  The decision to implement a desire (or not) is a conscious action which to me has no feasible explanation in terms of deterministic chemical acitivity in the brain.  The decision to turn desire into action is like the spiritual flick of a switch in the brain which can be operated by the human soul.

[torridon]

Whatever form of conscious awareness exists on this planet is not definable in scientific terms. 

Any evidence for that ?

Atoms and molecules react - they do not perceive.

Every higher creature on this planet has conscious perception. Taking the sense we are most familiar with - eyesight - every creature with eyes has conscious visual perception; it's not just humans that can see.  Vision is patterns of cortical excitation - atoms and molecules if you like - that echo patterns in radiation interacting with retinas. We don't need a 'perceiver' to reverse engineer what is happening in cortex, the perceiver is the cortex.  If you insist on a soul sitting there like some homonculus watching patterns of activity in cortex, then all animals that see must also have a 'soul'.

[torridon]

I fully agree that "will" is purposeful and not random.  The question is whether our conscious awareness has the freedom to choose which purpose to fulfil. 

At base, your problem is conceptual, around understanding the nature of 'will' and 'choice' .

If 'will' is purposeful, ie if we make choices for a reason, then it is not free, it serves a purpose, and no servant is ever free.

If our choices serve no purpose then they are random.

[Alan Burns]

Any evidence for that ?

Every higher creature on this planet has conscious perception. Taking the sense we are most familiar with - eyesight - every creature with eyes has conscious visual perception; it's not just humans that can see.  Vision is patterns of cortical excitation - atoms and molecules if you like - that echo patterns in radiation interacting with retinas. We don't need a 'perceiver' to reverse engineer what is happening in cortex, the perceiver is the cortex.  If you insist on a soul sitting there like some homonculus watching patterns of activity in cortex, then all animals that see must also have a 'soul'.

I could program animal like reactions to visual patterns and other data obtained from the sensory organs. The reactions animals have to such data do not constitute proof that they have the same conscious awareness as humans.

[Alan Burns]

At base, your problem is conceptual, around understanding the nature of 'will' and 'choice' .

If 'will' is purposeful, ie if we make choices for a reason, then it is not free, it serves a purpose, and no servant is ever free.

If our choices serve no purpose then they are random.

As I said in my post, we have a free choice as to which purpose we wish to fulfill.