Searching for GOD...

[Outrider]

How did the early Christians overcome the mighty Roman Empire?  They did not use violence or war.  They did it by living out the profound message of the gospels:  Love the Lord your God with all your heart and strength, and your neighbour as yourself. Sadly we seem to have lost the faith, courage and conviction of these early Christians which unleashed God's amazing power.  Many Christians today keep God on the side lines and allow other causes to prioritise their lives.  The sad irony is that the needs of these other causes would be met so much easier if we put God at the centre of our lives.

It is explained well in the words of this hymn:

Seek ye first the kingdom of God
And His righteousness
And all these things shall be added unto you
Allelu, alleluia

Ask and it shall be given unto you
Seek and ye shall find
Knock and the door shall be opened unto you
Allelu, alleluia

Man shall not live by bread alone
But by every word
That proceeds from the mouth of God
Allelu, alleluia

And the Crusades? And the English Civil War? And the Holocaust?

O.

[Alan Burns]

And the Crusades? And the English Civil War? And the Holocaust?

O.

The early Christians were not part of these events.  As the original Christian message was watered down, other priorities crept in and it became corrupted.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Alan,

Early Christians, sorry but not all sweetness and light, we do have evidence of looting, burning, destroying statues and even killing non believers.

Gonnagle.

[floo]

Dear Alan,

Early Christians, sorry but not all sweetness and light, we do have evidence of looting, burning, destroying statues and even killing non believers.

Gonnagle.

Agreed.

[Alan Burns]

Dear Alan,

Early Christians, sorry but not all sweetness and light, we do have evidence of looting, burning, destroying statues and even killing non believers.

Gonnagle.

Perhaps I have my rose coloured glasses on, but I was looking at the stories of the early Christian saints who stood up for their faith with defiant Christian love instead of violence, eventually converting their oppressors to become Christians.  Sadly there is also evidence of some who tried to use Christianity as a means to gain power.

[Outrider]

The early Christians were not part of these events.  As the original Christian message was watered down, other priorities crept in and it became corrupted.

That's a fine sentiment, that of the early Christians. Unfortunately, once it had become established as a religion and codified and theologised it stopped being about individual people wondering 'How would a loving God want this to be done' and became various churches telling people 'This is how your loving God wants things to be done', and that way lies doctrine and the sorts of unbending, unco-operative hostility that turns to violence.

Faith isn't a problem, gods aren't a problem, but religions are. Islam is a problem, as we see in ISIS, but let's not pretend that the other religions haven't had their time and won't necessarily have their time again.

I'd love the religious world to be filled with the sort of people who were beneficent pacifists; unfortunately, the religious world is filled with the same range of people that the rest of the world is, but religion doesn't appear to have the checks that stop warmongering nutbags rising to the top.

Secular society hasn't been perfect at it, of course, I'm not pretending that it has, and even when it does have the checks you still get people urging for vengeance bombings.

Religion isn't inherently pacifist, though, or inherently peaceful, because it's a tool that is used by people, and people aren't inherently pacifist or peaceful.

O.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Alan,

Like me you call yourself Christian, and like me it is quite natural to defend but we all, every Christian must closely look at our history and acknowledge  our bloody history, we can't, must not fluff over our mistakes.

Which is why I repeatedly quote Mathew 7, if you are a evangelist, if you want to promote Christianity, we first have to fix our own misgivings, I will go further and say, atheism is not the enemy, when every Christian shows by deeds and action that Christianity is all forgiving, is all loving then we will have far more converts.

Gonnagle.

[SusanDoris]

Cliches which have no eaning in reality, imo!

Well said, Floo.

[BashfulAnthony]

Well said, Floo.

Ask her why she keeps reading the Bible then:  she doesn't answer me.  What is the point of her posting, if only to repeat the same denunciations, without ever engaging in actual debate?  IMO]

("When I read the gospels I read what is written I don't use my imagination as you do": Floo quote:  M27 from, "What is God's Evolution?"

[SusanDoris]

Then, today, beyond Belief was about inter-faith marriage. The ban on marriages outside the various faiths and problems of religions banning a partner being buried beside the spouse, etc etc reveal the stupidity, the bigotry, the incomprehensible intolerance of human equal rights in such circumstances.

One Sikh-christian wedding, totally agreed and arranged to take place in the Gudwara (sp?) had to be cancelled at the last minute because of hundreds of Sikhs with swords and knives threatening violence and death if the temple was thus "violated". Disgraceful.

Who in their right minds would want to 'search' for such a God?

[BashfulAnthony]

I suspect those saints weren't very saintlike in reality!

Any evidence for that assertion  -  after all, you frequently criticise others for making assertions.  Not a hypocrite, are you?

(Doesn't expect an answer:  she never answers.)

[BashfulAnthony]

Then, today, beyond Belief was about inter-faith marriage. The ban on marriages outside the various faiths and problems of religions banning a partner being buried beside the spouse, etc etc reveal the stupidity, the bigotry, the incomprehensible intolerance of human equal rights in such circumstances.

One Sikh-christian wedding, totally agreed and arranged to take place in the Gudwara (sp?) had to be cancelled at the last minute because of hundreds of Sikhs with swords and knives threatening violence and death if the temple was thus "violated". Disgraceful.

Who in their right minds would want to 'search' for such a God?

You really haven't a clue have you?  You seek any opportunity to denounce God, when even a person of average understanding can see that it is people who are establishing these silly "rules."

[Alan Burns]

Dear Alan,

Like me you call yourself Christian, and like me it is quite natural to defend but we all, every Christian must closely look at our history and acknowledge  our bloody history, we can't, must not fluff over our mistakes.

Which is why I repeatedly quote Mathew 7, if you are a evangelist, if you want to promote Christianity, we first have to fix our own misgivings, I will go further and say, atheism is not the enemy, when every Christian shows by deeds and action that Christianity is all forgiving, is all loving then we will have far more converts.

Gonnagle.

I fully agree with the call of Matthew 7 for us not to judge other people, for we do not know what is in their hearts.  However we can say whether their actions conform to God's teaching, for Matthew 7 also warns against false prophets who shall be known by the fruits of their actions.

[Alan Burns]

I just wanted to share this little gem of information about the early Christian communities, taken from The Epistle to Diognetes, c. AD 130  (The author is unknown):


   For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity. The course of conduct which they follow has not been devised by any speculation or deliberation of inquisitive men; nor do they, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of any merely human doctrines. But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined and following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life.

    They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in all things with others and yet endure all things as if foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country, and every land of their birth as a land of strangers. They marry, as do all others; they beget children; but they do not destroy their offspring. They have a common table, but not a common bed. They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. They obey the prescribed laws, and at the same time surpass the laws by their lives. They love all men and are persecuted by all. They are unknown and condemned; they are put to death and restored to life. They are poor yet make many rich; they are in lack of all things and yet abound in all; they are dishonored and yet in their very dishonor are glorified. They are evil spoken of and yet are justified; they are reviled and bless; they are insulted and repay the insult with honor; they do good yet are punished as evildoers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they are assailed by the Jews as foreigners and are persecuted by the Greeks; yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred. To sum it all up in one word -- what the soul is to the body, that are Christians in the world.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Alan,

I fully agree with the call of Matthew 7 for us not to judge other people, for we do not know what is in their hearts.  However we can say whether their actions conform to God's teaching, for Matthew 7 also warns against false prophets who shall be known by the fruits of their actions.

Agree to disagree.

What I have witnessed over, lets say the past twenty years, Christianity has been re active instead of pro active. ( I am not talking about all the good work it carries out, although how it's done, help first and then Bible thumping, not vicky verky ) Christianity has been complacent, wallowing in its fat houses, thinking itself safe, when all around the cracks were showing and good men sat on their hands and allowed it.

You talk of Saints, time to take a leaf out of their book, St Francis comes to mind, although as I type this rubbish mathew 7 comes to mind, how can any Christian endorse air strikes.

Gonnagle.

[ippy]

Dear Alan,

Agree to disagree.

What I have witnessed over, lets say the past twenty years, Christianity has been re active instead of pro active. ( I am not talking about all the good work it carries out, although how it's done, help first and then Bible thumping, not vicky verky ) Christianity has been complacent, wallowing in its fat houses, thinking itself safe, when all around the cracks were showing and good men sat on their hands and allowed it.

You talk of Saints, time to take a leaf out of their book, St Francis comes to mind, although as I type this rubbish mathew 7 comes to mind, how can any Christian endorse air strikes.

Gonnagle.

                                           "how can any Christian endorse air strikes"

How can any of us pull up a chair sit down and watch a man in a cage burn to death?

I can see this problem with the Isis death cult what to do with them and be able to normalise, whatever normal is, the whole area afterwards, after they've been dealt with.

It's a consensus to bomb these crazy people and of course it's not the whole answer but it's a start to bomb them wherever the are; got any other ideas Gonners? I mean other than sitting on your hands?   

ippy

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

Aye!! sit them down and pour them a drink, but there's the bugger, the arseholes don't drink.

Gonnagle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And the Crusades? And the English Civil War? And the Holocaust?

O.

Holocaust? That was down to a Galtonian Darwinist.

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

Aye!! sit them down and pour them a drink, but there's the bugger, the arseholes don't drink.

Gonnagle.

Well Gonners, you think you can sit down with this Isis lot?

Do you mind if I don't come along with you on this one, I know they don't drink and I'm sure there's something else I've got to do on that day.

ippy 

[ad_orientem]

Dear ippy,

Aye!! sit them down and pour them a drink, but there's the bugger, the arseholes don't drink.

Gonnagle.

I don't trust anyone who don't drink.

[Shaker]

I don't trust anyone who don't drink.

On that we agree 

[BashfulAnthony]

Muslims aren't supposed to drink, but some do, as I know because I lived amongst them for years.

[Shaker]

Muslims aren't supposed to drink, but some do, as I know because i lived amongst them for years.

Pretty well all the Muslims I know drink like it's going out of fashion.

Usually after a sausage sandwich for tea.

[ad_orientem]

Muslims aren't supposed to drink, but some do, as I know because i lived amongst them for years.

I know Muslims who drink too but they still all abstain from pork. Never quite understood that. If you're going to drink why not eat pork aswell?

[BashfulAnthony]

Pretty well all the Muslims I know drink like it's going out of fashion.

Usually after a sausage sandwich for tea.

My next door but one neighbour in those days, a Muslim and very good friend, kept an off-licence and it was full of drink, and he imbibed regularly, even though he was a devout Muslim.  I often wondered if they have some sort of get-out clause, like the Catholics?