Searching for GOD...

[ekim]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm! Well it would appear Jesus liked his booze, which I am not sure was to his credit! Of course I don't believe he created wine out of water!

It could be meant as an analogy for spreading the spirit.  Wine contains 'spirit' (alcohol) and water doesn't.  The Hebrew word 'netsach' can mean grape juice, wine, blood, strength, glory, power, confidence, completeness.  There are those who look at it literally and those who look at it symbolically.  The same might apply to communion wine.

[ad_orientem]

I think it's rather sad that you think so little of yourself that you need alcohol to feel that you aren't boring...

O.

Eh? Where did you get that from? I never said I thought I was boring without alcohol. "Boring" was a dig at Floo. Never got drunk? How dull!

[ad_orientem]

It could be meant as an analogy for spreading the spirit.  Wine contains 'spirit' (alcohol) and water doesn't.  The Hebrew word 'netsach' can mean grape juice, wine, blood, strength, glory, power, confidence, completeness.  There are those who look at it literally and those who look at it symbolically.  The same might apply to communion wine.

Eh? St. John's gospel was written in Greek.

[Outrider]

The wisdom expressed in the Psalms recognises that our earthly life is merely a breath - we were made for much more than this.

Or, otherwise, the psalms assert that we shouldn't worry too much about this life because there's another one coming, honest, trust me, would I lie to you, all I want is 10%...

The psalmists also recognise the presence of evil which prevents us from seeing God.

God's that ineffective? God lacks the capacity to make himself known past our intrinsic nature that he gave us?

God does not deliberately hide Himself - he became one of us in order to make Himself known to us.

And he did that in Israel (never been), in the first decades of the first century (again, never been), even if we accept that the stories are true. As a proportion of people who have ever existed, the proportion that were alive then, in that area is pretty small: that sounds like hiding from the overwhelming majority to me.

And He suffered torture and death in order to open up a path to eternal salvation, and in order to obtain that salvation we have to accept Jesus Christ as our lifeline.

He suffered torture, perhaps, but death? What's death to an immortal being? Why is death such a bad thing, given that he was coming back - or already there? Given that he could perform miracles do we know that numbing the pain couldn't have been one of those? Do we know, if we accept the idea that he's an embodiment of God, whether he's capable of feeling pain at all? We don't know if other people feel in the same way we feel, given the subjective nature of reality, how do we know that God feels pain like we do? What's transitory pain to an eternal being?

That's before we ever get to the idea that God needs pain, suffering and death in order to forgive us in the first place.

O.

[Alan Burns]

God's that ineffective? God lacks the capacity to make himself known past our intrinsic nature that he gave us?

And he did that in Israel (never been), in the first decades of the first century (again, never been), even if we accept that the stories are true. As a proportion of people who have ever existed, the proportion that were alive then, in that area is pretty small: that sounds like hiding from the overwhelming majority to me.

But the miraculous thing is that this carpenter's son from Nazareth has become the most well known person who has ever lived on this earth.

[Shaker]

And Miley Cyrus.

[floo]

And Miley Cyrus.

Who?

[Alan Burns]

So has Mohammed!

There are many who know of him, but not many who know much about him.

[Outrider]

But the miraculous thing is that this carpenter's son from Nazareth has become the most well known person who has ever lived on this earth.

I think he's probably joint top with Muhammed, Buddha, Gandalf and Iron Man... Having a good marketing department doesn't make your product good or your claims true.

O.

[Outrider]

There are many who know of him, but not many who know much about him.

Likewise Jesus - there are many who claim to know him, of course, but that's not the same thing.

O.

[BeRational]

He looked like Robert Powell.

That's my internal picture of Jesus.

[floo]

I reckon he was probably a scruffy looking guy.

[ekim]

Eh? St. John's gospel was written in Greek.

That doesn't necessarily mean much when it comes to the probable Hebrew symbolism used within the Jewish circles associated with Jesus' ministry.  The 4th Gospel followed about 70 or 80 years later in a language which might well not have been conducive to the same symbolism.  It's like the previous English quote 'In the beginning was the word' where the Greek word 'logos' is translated as 'word' but to a Hellenised Jew it had other meanings like .... creative principle, divine wisdom ... amongst others.

[ad_orientem]

That doesn't necessarily mean much when it comes to the probable Hebrew symbolism used within the Jewish circles associated with Jesus' ministry.  The 4th Gospel followed about 70 or 80 years later in a language which might well not have been conducive to the same symbolism.  It's like the previous English quote 'In the beginning was the word' where the Greek word 'logos' is translated as 'word' but to a Hellenised Jew it had other meanings like .... creative principle, divine wisdom ... amongst others.

You can't do that. You can't speculate on a Hebrew equivalent, not that they would have spoken in Hebrew anyway. St. John wrote the gospel in Greek and that's what you have to work with.

[ippy]

You can't do that. You can't speculate on a Hebrew equivalent, not that they would have spoken in Hebrew anyway. St. John wrote the gospel in Greek and that's what you have to work with.

Titanic, deck chairs the rearrangement thereof.

You don't hear much about that book, "The Thoughts of Zeus" either in greek or in latin these days either?

These deeply important intellectual pursuits?

ippy

[ekim]

You can't do that. You can't speculate on a Hebrew equivalent, not that they would have spoken in Hebrew anyway. St. John wrote the gospel in Greek and that's what you have to work with.

I think it is the indoctrinated who are not free to speculate upon other interpretations, which is why it is easy for them to blindly believe that 160 gallons of water can be converted into wine at short notice.  The questioning rational mind gets switched off.  The history of those who do question orthodoxy is to cast them into the role of heretic, infidel or schismatic and punish them.

[Sassy]

Speaking from personal experience, going to confession is by far the most difficult part of my faith, but it can also be the most rewarding.  God forgives a repentant sinner, but just being sorry in your mind can be very subjective.  To bring your sins out into the open for someone else to see is not easy, but as the priest is there as God's representative it is a much more objective way of receiving His forgiveness.  And I often experience a priest's ability to see into the depths of your soul with an amazing gift of insight.  I can assure the sceptics that there is a huge incentive not to carry on sinning after going to confession - it is a very humbling experience.

Man cannot forgive your sins. The disciples told us to confess our sins to one another.


King James Bible
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

So in reality the confessional with priests is not a taught thing by the Apostles. James tells us to confess our sins to one another.

As a body we do not hide from each part of the body the sins we may commit. It helps us to function when the body is whole and works together.

Confess your sins to God...There is only one high priest who intercedes for us and that is Christ. He is the only way to God and he is the Propitiation for our sins. No way but by him. So the body works together and functions together.

[ad_orientem]

I think it is the indoctrinated who are not free to speculate upon other interpretations, which is why it is easy for them to blindly believe that 160 gallons of water can be converted into wine at short notice.  The questioning rational mind gets switched off.  The history of those who do question orthodoxy is to cast them into the role of heretic, infidel or schismatic and punish them.

Then speculation is all you'll have. For those who believe that God has revealed the truth, that the truth saves there is no "blindly". Such have eyes to see, which is why such believe that Christ turned water into wine and ultimately why he rose from the dead. There is no other faith, no other truth but orthodoxy. Everything else is just speculation, blind.

[Outrider]

Then speculation is all you'll have. For those who believe that God has revealed the truth, that the truth saves there is no "blindly". Such have eyes to see, which is why such believe that Christ turned water into wine and ultimately why he rose from the dead.

Unfortunately, it's impossible for us to tell from the inside whether what we think we see is real or a delusion. If you need to believe before you can see, I'd question whether you're seeing what's real or seeing what you want to see...

There is no other faith, no other truth but orthodoxy. Everything else is just speculation, blind.

Which is strange, because the evidence suggests that everyone's individual experience is subjective...

O.

[ad_orientem]

Man cannot forgive your sins. The disciples told us to confess our sins to one another.


King James Bible
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

So in reality the confessional with priests is not a taught thing by the Apostles. James tells us to confess our sins to one another.

As a body we do not hide from each part of the body the sins we may commit. It helps us to function when the body is whole and works together.

Confess your sins to God...There is only one high priest who intercedes for us and that is Christ. He is the only way to God and he is the Propitiation for our sins. No way but by him. So the body works together and functions together.

Once again Sass shows her ignorance of the scriptures. In the Gospel according to St. John our Lord says to his Apostles "Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained".

[floo]

Man cannot forgive your sins. The disciples told us to confess our sins to one another.


King James Bible
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

So in reality the confessional with priests is not a taught thing by the Apostles. James tells us to confess our sins to one another.

As a body we do not hide from each part of the body the sins we may commit. It helps us to function when the body is whole and works together.

Confess your sins to God...There is only one high priest who intercedes for us and that is Christ. He is the only way to God and he is the Propitiation for our sins. No way but by him. So the body works together and functions together.

The flipping deity needs to confess its evil deeds and apologise for them, no human is or has been, as bad as it, should it really exist!

[Alan Burns]

One of the repeated phrases on this thread is "Why would God hide Himself from us".

But are people hiding themselves from God? - because they do not want Him to exist, or perhaps because they are sub consciously afraid of Him?

The evidence for God is all around us and within us, but many seem to be oblivious to it.

We have discovered a little scientific knowledge, and extrapolated it into an imagined scenario in which everything about our existence is explained in natural terms with no need for a creator.

So the reality is that we have a microscopic DNA molecule which contains within it all the information and mechanisms needed to build and maintain a complete human being - every hair, every brain cell, every blood vessel, every nerve, every muscle, every cell.  And we are asked to believe that this truly mind blowing mechanism was brought about entirely by unguided natural forces which are demonstrably destructive in their nature.  I put it to you that the billions of beneficial mutations needed to bring us into existence must have been brought about with forces guided by a precision beyond our comprehension.  I will counter the inevitable accusations of personal incredulity with personal obliviousness to the obvious existence God's creative powers.  The denial of these powers seems to be driven by a similar logic used to deny the obvious human ability to choose between good and evil.

We need to wake up to the reality of God's existence, and the reality of our own free will which gives evidence to the reality of the human soul.

[Outrider]

One of the repeated phrases on this thread is "Why would God hide Himself from us".

But are people hiding themselves from God? - because they do not want Him to exist, or perhaps because they are sub consciously afraid of Him?

Is that why I can't see fairies or goblins, but can see cows? How come Mrs. O. can see spiders when she's petrified of them? There are any number of people who want God to exist but still can't find him.

The evidence for God is all around us and within us, but many seem to be oblivious to it.

The problem with that is that you already need to think God is responsible for something in order to see it as evidence for gods. When you start from the available evidence, none of it leads to 'god'.

We have discovered a little scientific knowledge, and extrapolated it into an imagined scenario in which everything about our existence is explained in natural terms with no need for a creator.

Whereas we haven't discovered a creator, or anything spiritual, or any indication of life after death, and yet somehow you've extrapolate that into a specific God that doesn't like gayness or women, but really likes Israel...

So the reality is that we have a microscopic DNA molecule which contains within it all the information and mechanisms needed to build and maintain a complete human being - every hair, every brain cell, every blood vessel, every nerve, every muscle, every cell.  And we are asked to believe that this truly mind blowing mechanism was brought about entirely by unguided natural forces which are demonstrably destructive in their nature.

The mechanisms involved are neither inherently destructive nor constructive, they are simply physical interactions: whether we consider them constructive or destructive depends on where we're standing when we do the watching.

As opposed to being asked to believe that an intelligence capable of engineering all that spontaneously sprang into existence from its own thoughts...

Even though the argument from incredulity is a fallacy, it's a fallacy that you compound by accepting a worse version as your alternative.

I put it to you that the billions of beneficial mutations needed to bring us into existence must have been brought about with forces guided by a precision beyond our comprehension.

And I put it to you that you very obviously fail to comprehend the vast numbers of physical interactions that have occurred in the history of the universe to result in this current state, that means despite the extremely low odds of each of the individual events happening, the number of attempts mean that the odds of the total happening somewhere are reasonable. It's only if you presume, arbitrarily, that this particular outcome was somehow an intention that this particular outcome becomes significant.

I will counter the inevitable accusations of personal incredulity with personal obliviousness to the obvious existence God's creative powers.  The denial of these powers seems to be driven by a similar logic used to deny the obvious human ability to choose between good and evil.

Ah, so your failure to explain how something can be both will and free somehow justifies your equally baseless argument from incredulity about a natural universe in favour of a more improbable spontaneous, self-creating hyper-intelligence.

We need to wake up to the reality of God's existence, and the reality of our own free will which gives evidence to the reality of the human soul.

You know what, I find that hard to believe.

O.

[Alan Burns]

There are any number of people who want God to exist but still can't find him.

From your posts I would suspect that you are not one of these people who want God to exist.

I know there are some who genuinely try to find God, but encounter some difficulty - I would suggest to them to persevere and have faith in God's words: "Seek and you will find, knock and the door shall be opened to you."

[Outrider]

From your posts I would suspect that you are not one of these people who want God to exist.

What I want seems largely irrelevant - God either exists or it doesn't. I neither want god to exist or not, what I want is to work out how things work, why particular situations resolve the way they do. I want, so far as is possible, truth, and I preclude nothing intrinsically, but neither do I merely accept contentions because they are made.

I know there are some who genuinely try to find God, but encounter some difficulty - I would suggest to them to persevere and have faith in God's words: "Seek and you will find, knock and the door shall be opened to you."

I genuinely seek for the explanations for observable phenomena - that's my job, my educational background and my calling - and to date I've seen nothing that would lead me to think the idea of god was viable, let alone 'the' explanation for anything.

O.