Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

From your posts I would suspect that you are not one of these people who want God to exist.

Wanting has absolutely no bearing on what's actually true or not, though, does it? This is the nub of the argument against petitionary prayer, for instance. What happens, happens according to the rules the stuff of the world obey, and human desires don't enter into it otherwise there would be no sickness, hunger or poverty.

[Alan Burns]

Wanting has absolutely no bearing on what's actually true or not, though, does it? This is the nub of the argument against petitionary prayer, for instance. What happens, happens according the rules the stuff of the world obey, and human desires don't enter into it otherwise there would be no sickness, hunger or poverty.

But by acting on our good human desires, hopefully we can help relieve at least some of the sickness, hunger or poverty which exists in this world.   We are told in scripture that we are God's presence here on this earth

[Shaker]

But by acting on our good human desires, hopefully we can help relieve at least some of the sickness, hunger or poverty which exists in this world.

But that's direct practical action, hands-on legwork (to mix my metaphors), not getting down on your knees and asking God to do it. Expect God to do anything and you'll have a bloody long wait - as Robert Ingersoll put it, hands that help are better than lips that pray.

[Alan Burns]

But that's direct practical action, hands-on legwork (to mix my metaphors), not getting down on your knees and asking God to do it. Expect God to do anything and you'll have a bloody long wait - as Robert Ingersoll put it, hands that help are better than lips that pray.

In my experience prayer makes my actions much more effective

[Shaker]

In my experience prayer makes my actions much more effective

How?

[Alan Burns]

How?

When I forget to pray about something, invariably it does not turn out as well as something I do in conjuction with a prayer.

[BeRational]

When I forget to pray about something, invariably it does not turn out as well as something I do in conjuction with a prayer.

This is simply confirmation bias.

[Alan Burns]

This is simply confirmation bias.

Yes, I can confirm that prayer works for me. 

[Shaker]

Yes, I can confirm that prayer works for me. 

And the bias part as well, presumably

[Gonnagle]

Dear Floo,

But that could well be because you believe a deity is listening to you, therefore the effect is beneficial.

Correct, by jove the lady has got it.

Jove, oops!! am I turning pagan

Gonnagle.

[BeRational]

Yes, I can confirm that prayer works for me. 

You simply remember the hits, and forget the misses.

Confirmation bias.

If you could really demonstrate that prayer worked, that would be world news.
you can't though, it just feels nice to you.

All subjective nonsense.

[Shaker]

But even so that doesn't mean any deity is listening to you pray. Superstitious people who go in for actions like touching wood, or chucking a pinch of salt over their shoulder, for instance, probably feel the same as you.

It's confirmation bias couple with magical thinking - I noticed that when I did A there was a pleasant and beneficial result B, therefore if I do A again, B will result. It completely misunderstands and misrepresents the random nature of events.

[floo]

You simply remember the hits, and forget the misses.

Confirmation bias.

If you could really demonstrate that prayer worked, that would be world news.
you can't though, it just feels nice to you.

All subjective nonsense.

That seems to be the way of it. If something good happens after praying the deity is said to have answered the prayer positively, if nothing happens, or something bad occurs the deity isn't blamed, some excuse is often made!

[ippy]

Yes, I can confirm that prayer works for me. 

You're off your trolly Alan nobody has or can possibly prove that prayer works, part of recovery is recognizing for yourself etc.

I'm sure it may make you feel better but that's about it Alan that's your lot, B R has summed it up for you in, a nutshell.

ippy

[torridon]

One of the repeated phrases on this thread is "Why would God hide Himself from us".

But are people hiding themselves from God? - because they do not want Him to exist, or perhaps because they are sub consciously afraid of Him?

The evidence for God is all around us and within us, but many seem to be oblivious to it.

We have discovered a little scientific knowledge, and extrapolated it into an imagined scenario in which everything about our existence is explained in natural terms with no need for a creator.

So the reality is that we have a microscopic DNA molecule which contains within it all the information and mechanisms needed to build and maintain a complete human being - every hair, every brain cell, every blood vessel, every nerve, every muscle, every cell.  And we are asked to believe that this truly mind blowing mechanism was brought about entirely by unguided natural forces which are demonstrably destructive in their nature.  I put it to you that the billions of beneficial mutations needed to bring us into existence must have been brought about with forces guided by a precision beyond our comprehension.  I will counter the inevitable accusations of personal incredulity with personal obliviousness to the obvious existence God's creative powers.  The denial of these powers seems to be driven by a similar logic used to deny the obvious human ability to choose between good and evil.

We need to wake up to the reality of God's existence, and the reality of our own free will which gives evidence to the reality of the human soul.

This looks like a rather degraded use of the concept of 'evidence'.  At its best, evidence is something that helps us discriminate between rival hypotheses or between truth and fiction. What evidence is there that the cosmos was created by a single all-powerful creator/deity working alone as opposed to a team of individuals collaborating in some higher realm for instance ? Such matters are probably outside our ability to test for, and therefore they are bound to remain in the realm of the speculative, of the fanciful, for the time being at least.

[Outrider]

But by acting on our good human desires, hopefully we can help relieve at least some of the sickness, hunger or poverty which exists in this world.   We are told in scripture that we are God's presence here on this earth

I'd agree, but that's humanity acting. If we are 'God's presence on Earth' how is that any difference to us being here without God?

O.

[Outrider]

Yes, I can confirm that prayer works for me. 

Shaker's entirely plausible point about confirmation bias notwithstanding, let's for a moment assume that you've accurately assessed the situation, and that when you pray for an outcome that you are working towards you are genuinely successful more often than when you don't.

How do you determine this isn't a sort of 'psychosomatic' effect - you subconsciously sabotaging your own efforts BECAUSE you haven't prayed, or you putting extra effort in to meet the obligations you feel BECAUSE you've prayed (so it's important)?

O.

[SusanDoris]

I'd agree, but that's humanity acting. If we are 'God's presence on Earth' how is that any difference to us being here without God?

O.

And that's the whole  point that Alan and others miss out on completely. It is far more exciting, amazing, interesting and is of course vitally valuable knowledge that it is evolved humans who have done all that has been thought, said, discovered and made available to others because we have evolved to communicate... 
Give me reality every time!

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But that's direct practical action, hands-on legwork (to mix my metaphors), not getting down on your knees and asking God to do it. Expect God to do anything and you'll have a bloody long wait - as Robert Ingersoll put it, hands that help are better than lips that pray.

Ingersoll? .........You need to watch that bloke.

Another twat who didn't realise that Christians pray when antitheist's mouth off ( or tweet as it would be called today ).

[Shaker]

I don't use it any more but I found Twitter's 140 character limit bad for conversation but good for sharing information, such as URLs, so if you're trying to raise awareness of a cause or need to publicise a website, Twitter's pretty good.

And at least mouthing off on Twitter as you call it actually gets an audience however small, Vlad

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I don't use it any more but I found Twitter's 140 character limit bad for conversation but good for sharing information, such as URLs, so if you're trying to raise awareness of a cause

I think we are well aware of antitheism which can't in anybody's book be seen as a good cause.

[Shaker]

I think we are well aware of antitheism which can't in anybody's book be seen as a good cause.

No, Vlad - you may think that, not everybody else does.

[Rhiannon]

In my experience prayer makes my actions much more effective

So God gets the credit for the good stuff you do. Isn't that a bit sad really?

[Alan Burns]

You simply remember the hits, and forget the misses.

Confirmation bias.

If you could really demonstrate that prayer worked, that would be world news.
you can't though, it just feels nice to you.

All subjective nonsense.

It is when I look back on the misses that I realise I had not prayed about it.  I can't recall looking back on a miss which I had prayed about.

[Alan Burns]

I'd agree, but that's humanity acting. If we are 'God's presence on Earth' how is that any difference to us being here without God?

O.

God works through people if we allow Him to.