Searching for GOD...

[Rhiannon]

God works through people if we allow Him to.

So they don't get the credit either.

[Alan Burns]

Shaker's entirely plausible point about confirmation bias notwithstanding, let's for a moment assume that you've accurately assessed the situation, and that when you pray for an outcome that you are working towards you are genuinely successful more often than when you don't.

How do you determine this isn't a sort of 'psychosomatic' effect - you subconsciously sabotaging your own efforts BECAUSE you haven't prayed, or you putting extra effort in to meet the obligations you feel BECAUSE you've prayed (so it's important)?

O.

It is just sometimes I forget to pray about something.  Ideally I should pray about everything I try to do.

[Outrider]

God works through people if we allow Him to.

I get that's your view - as someone who doesn't have that view, how would I differentiate between a world where God worked through people and a world where people just worked?

Or, to put it differently, given that people have drives of their own, what makes you think that God is acting through them when they go about their own lives?

O.

[Rhiannon]

It's confirmation bias couple with magical thinking - I noticed that when I did A there was a pleasant and beneficial result B, therefore if I do A again, B will result. It completely misunderstands and misrepresents the random nature of events.

Yes. I read recently that Southend Utd now play Justin Bieber's latest album before matches because their striker scores more goals when they do. It's no different. Lucky pants, only with words instead.

[torridon]

So the reality is that we have a microscopic DNA molecule which contains within it all the information and mechanisms needed to build and maintain a complete human being - every hair, every brain cell, every blood vessel, every nerve, every muscle, every cell.  And we are asked to believe that this truly mind blowing mechanism was brought about entirely by unguided natural forces which are demonstrably destructive in their nature.  I put it to you that the billions of beneficial mutations needed to bring us into existence must have been brought about with forces guided by a precision beyond our comprehension. 

The same mechanism that brought forth H.Sapiens also exquisitly crafted leprosy, cockroaches, west nile virus, rats and flesh eating beetles, not to mention a billion other life forms that you would find detestable.  All you demonstrate in the above paragraph is an enormous selection bias, you're picking out things that are appealing to you and attributing that to God whilst quietly ignoring everything else that doesn't suit your biases.

[Alan Burns]

I get that's your view - as someone who doesn't have that view, how would I differentiate between a world where God worked through people and a world where people just worked?

Or, to put it differently, given that people have drives of their own, what makes you think that God is acting through them when they go about their own lives?

O.

An outside observer would not be able to differentiate.

Doing God's work is discerned personally through prayer.  In my own case I sometimes get called to do something I would not personally choose on my own.  One example was my calling to lead the music at a monthly charismatic prayer meeting at Ampleforth.  I did not enjoy music at Mass - I used to go to an early Mass in order to avoid the singing.  I could never have dreamed that I would ever lead the singing at church, but I answered God's call and He gave me the courage and gifts to carry it out.

If God calls you to do something, you can be assured that He will give you whatever is needed to carry it out.

[Alan Burns]

The same mechanism that brought forth H.Sapiens also exquisitly crafted leprosy, cockroaches, west nile virus, rats and flesh eating beetles, not to mention a billion other life forms that you would find detestable.  All you demonstrate in the above paragraph is an enormous selection bias, you're picking out things that are appealing to you and attributing that to God whilst quietly ignoring everything else that doesn't suit your biases.

I was just highlighting something that could never happen by chance.  This is not selection bias.

[Alan Burns]

Yeh right! Like in the case of a young man I knew many years ago. He believed the deity was calling him to be a pastor, he became one and in spite of his best efforts it turned out to be a total disaster! So much for the deity's help!

I know from personal experience that not all "good causes" that come our way are calls from God.  You need to pray for discernment.

[Shaker]

I was just highlighting something that could never happen by chance.

If you're referring to evolution, you're right - it doesn't operate wholly by chance; it operates partly by chance.

[Shaker]

An outside observer would not be able to differentiate.

Doing God's work is discerned personally through prayer.

That's a circular argument though Alan. You're begging the question (in the proper usage of that phrase) in assuming the truth of something yet to be demonstrated.

[Alan Burns]

That's circular argument though Alan. You're begging the question (in the proper usage of that phrase) in assuming the truth of something yet to be demonstrated.

It is not really an argument.  I was just relating my personal experience of how I can discern God's will in my life through prayer.

[Shaker]

It is not really an argument.  I was just relating my personal experience of how I can discern God's will in my life through prayer.

And yet it's still circular, for the reason already given.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That's circular argument though Alan. You're begging the question (in the proper usage of that phrase) in assuming the truth of something yet to be demonstrated.

This suggests that only things which are established/demonstrated are true. That it is the establishment of something that endows it with reality.
I don't think the universe, let alone the almighty, has ever operated in that manner.

As Wittgenstein might have said, although I haven't established it yet, I thing you have reasoned yourself intra rectally.

[Shaker]

This suggests that only things which are established/demonstrated are true. That it is the establishment of something that endows it with reality.
I don't think the universe, let alone the almighty, has ever operated in that manner.

Science does, however.

As Wittgenstein might have said, although I haven't established it yet, I thing you have reasoned yourself intra rectally.

I gather that even Wittgenstein's English was better than that.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Science does, however.
I gather that even Wittgenstein's English was better than that.

Surely science teaches that the truth is out there to be discovered, not talked into existence through 'clever' argument.

Secondly, was Wittgy's English better than mine? Probably........ in that irritating teutonic way.

[Shaker]

Surely science teaches that the truth is out there to be discovered, not talked into existence through 'clever' argument.

That's right.

Secondly, was Wittgy's English better than mine? Probably........ in that irritating teutonic way.

Well, he put some effort into it.

[Alan Burns]

So if it turns out right it was what the deity wanted, if it turned out wrong then it wasn't according to the deity's wishes?

Correct

[Shaker]

Correct

In #6048 Outrider briefly made the point that I was going to, and may as well again: what methodology are you proposing so that we can tell the difference between a rather choosy, on-and-off, might-do-might-not God and the operation of random chance? How do you distinguish one from the other?

[Alan Burns]

In #6048 Outrider briefly made the point that I was going to, and may as well again: what methodology are you proposing so that we can tell the difference between a rather choosy, on-and-off, might-do-might-not God and the operation of random chance? How do you distinguish one from the other?

As I tried to say in my reply to Outrider, discerning God's will in my life is done through prayer.  It is hard to put into words, but it is ultimately an unmistakable feeling of what God wants me to do.  I still have my own free will and have the option to say no, but I know if I take a step in faith God will help me to achieve what He wants me to do.

[Shaker]

Rather aptly we've gone round in a circle and have returned to the circular reasoning, though, Alan.

[Shaker]

So the deity is always in a win/win situation, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

'Twas ever thus though Floo. These sorts of beliefs are shored up by a mindset where everything confirms and nothing disconfirms.

[Alan Burns]

Rather aptly we've gone round in a circle and have returned to the circular reasoning, though, Alan.

Just as an aside, I am sorry to see you have lost your avatar.  Sooty brings back fond memories for me.  It was the first television show I saw when my big sister took me to her friend's house at the home of the local newsagent, who had the only television in the area. 

Another fond early memory was of my sister taking me into the local church to see baby Jesus in the manger.  It was the start of a wonderful relationship.

[ippy]

Just as an aside, I am sorry to see you have lost your avatar.  Sooty brings back fond memories for me.  It was the first television show I saw when my big sister took me to her friend's house at the home of the local newsagent, who had the only television in the area. 

Another fond early memory was of my sister taking me into the local church to see baby Jesus in the manger.  It was the start of a wonderful relationship.

Not surprising you probably imagined Sooty was a real bear, then the seeing manger lead you to think you have some  imaginary relationship, I dare say you no longer think of Sooty in the same way?

A good example of how imagination often can and does take over, from common sense.

ippy

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Just as an aside, I am sorry to see you have lost your avatar. 

I understand Sooty felt he could no longer endorse Shaker's views.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Not surprising you probably imagined Sooty was a real bear, then the seeing manger lead you to think you have some  imaginary relationship, I dare say you no longer think of Sooty in the same way?

A good example of how imagination often can and does take over, from common sense.

ippy

Is it just me or can anyone else hear a clunking, grinding or groaning when they read that back?