Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

My parents just operate the machinery that brings me into existence.  They did not design the machinery themselves.

Nor is there a scrap of evidence that it was designed at all, which as an honest chap you will have to agree with. Your beliefs are your own and that's fine for you, but you can't claim evidence here.

[ippy]

My awareness of my own existence is for me overwhelming proof that God exists.

There,s nothing I can see that's wrong with beliveing that, even though it doesn't make sense, but if you can please explain ?

 It looks to me if you do decide to answer Alan, it's going to be another one of those questions that takes some considerable time before any kind of credible, or even better rational, answer arrives here on the forum.

ippy

[Outrider]

You seem to overlook the possibility that God does exist, that He made Himself known through Jesus, and that we can communicate with God through prayer.

If I were dismissing it out of hand I wouldn't be asking how one could differentiate, I'd just state it was self-deception. I think it is, but I try to be open-minded, so I ask... how would you differentiate?

O.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Nor is there a scrap of evidence that it was designed at all, which as an honest chap you will have to agree with. Your beliefs are your own and that's fine for you, but you can't claim evidence here.

For a chap claiming to be read in Dawkins, Design is one obvious hypothesis to be drawn from observing the universe. In fact according to Dawkins not even Hume could have made a respectable case against design......and then of course Dawkins takes a sharp detour into the domain of evolution to counter design.

Darwinian evolution is then cleverly extrapolated to take in and show that somehow universal design or governance is a silly idea.

Dawkins of course knows that Life is dependent on such a narrow set of parameters that there is still room for a 'man upstairs'. Hence the appeal to multiverse in 'The God Delusion'. 

[ippy]

For a chap claiming to be read in Dawkins, Design is one obvious hypothesis to be drawn from observing the universe. In fact according to Dawkins not even Hume could have made a respectable case against design......and then of course Dawkins takes a sharp detour into the domain of evolution to counter design.

Darwinian evolution is then cleverly extrapolated to take in and show that somehow universal design or governance is a silly idea.

Dawkins of course knows that Life is dependent on such a narrow set of parameters that there is still room for a 'man upstairs'. Hence the appeal to multiverse in 'The God Delusion'.

Either do some reading up on the subject Vlad or try YouTube, with all of those "Our Lord of the Dawkins" lectures about how evolution works, even though you so obviously don't like him; like him or not he is one of the foremost experts on evolutionary biology that we have here in our country and he is also very good at explaining how it all works, even I can understand the things he says.

Another thing about RD is, if there were the slightest part of ID that had any credibility he would be the first one to point out as much, the fact that this has never happened is telling us all something and not anything you would like to hear Vlad.

lppy.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Either do some reading up on the subject Vlad or try YouTube, with all of those "Our Lord of the Dawkins" lectures about how evlution works, even though you so obviously don't like him; like him or not he is one of the foremost experts on evolutionary biology that we have here in our country and he is also very good at explaining how it all works, even I can understand the things he says.

Another thing about RD is, if there were the slightest part of ID that had any credibility he would be the first one to point out as much, the fact that this has never happened is telling us all something and not anything you would like to hear Vlad.

lppy.

Aargh......appeal to authority.

Nothing wrong with evolution, I am a evolutionist myself. What is wrong is to extend it's principles beyond that which evidently evolves in Darwinian fashion......hence the embarrassment of memetics, a theory of anything if ever there was one.

You've made the same error as he has i.e. of extrapolating Darwinian evolution to cover non living systems.

[Alan Burns]

Nor is there a scrap of evidence that it was designed at all

Try telling that to God when you meet up.  He enjoys a good laugh - after all, he invented humour.   

[Shaker]

Try telling that to God when you meet up.  He enjoys a good laugh - after all, he invented humour.   

That Assertatron of yours - how many miles to the gallon do you get out of it?

[Alan Burns]

There,s nothing I can see that's wrong with beliveing that, even though it doesn't make sense, but if you can please explain ?

My awareness can't be defined as a pattern of chemical activity - for patterns are perceived from outside, not from within, and the pattern can have no control over what generates it, but I have control over my existence.  I am a spiritual being which defies material definition.

[ippy]

My awareness can't be defined as a pattern of chemical activity - for patterns are perceived from outside, not from within, and the pattern can have no control over what generates it, but I have control over my existence.  I am a spiritual being which defies material definition.

In other words you've got no idea Alan, all I can suggest that might help, that is if the contents of this post of yours has any credibility, don't whatever you do put any more silver paper in your hat.

ippy

[torridon]

My awareness can't be defined as a pattern of chemical activity - for patterns are perceived from outside, not from within, and the pattern can have no control over what generates it, but I have control over my existence.....

An antelope is aware of the lion stalking it exactly because it does do that pattern recognition that you keep insisting needs to be done by some external entity.  This is the job of brains, pattern seeking and interpretation is what brains are about, we don't need need a second brain to see what the first brain has already done.  Self-awareness in humans is just a natural reflexive extension of general awareness and it happens to some extent in other mammals.  On the other hand small human children do not have self awareness so do you conclude that they don't have a soul ?

[Alan Burns]

An antelope is aware of the lion stalking it exactly because it does do that pattern recognition that you keep insisting needs to be done by some external entity. 

Animals can react to visual patterns perceived in the brain, but this does not define the conscious perception we experience as humans

  On the other hand small human children do not have self awareness so do you conclude that they don't have a soul ?

As the physical elements of the brain mature and develop, so the soul's perception of brain content will increase.

[Bubbles]

An antelope is aware of the lion stalking it exactly because it does do that pattern recognition that you keep insisting needs to be done by some external entity.  This is the job of brains, pattern seeking and interpretation is what brains are about, we don't need need a second brain to see what the first brain has already done.  Self-awareness in humans is just a natural reflexive extension of general awareness and it happens to some extent in other mammals.  On the other hand small human children do not have self awareness so do you conclude that they don't have a soul ?

Claiming small children don't have self awareness is just an assertion.

I can remember before I could walk, amazingly actual circumstances that is remembered by my mother who can confirm my memories.

I was as self aware as I am now, just not as knowledgable.

[Sassy]

Once again Sass shows her ignorance of the scriptures. In the Gospel according to St. John our Lord says to his Apostles "Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained".

If, you understood the NT you would by your reasoning prevent everyone who were not forgiven by the disciples from having their sins forgiven.
You see the bible is very clear that there is ONLY ONE intercessor between God and Man. Jesus Christ.

You love to twist the truth of the words spoken by Christ to make it something it was never meant to be.
These are the words...

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

God is not a respector of persons. The first gospel message going out into the world. The fact remains that anyone like the disciples who believe in Jesus and receive baptism of the Holy Spirit have had their sins forgiven and are no different to the disciples. For God treats everyone the same.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.



The people who hear the message only have to believe and their sins are forgiven. No priest required because Christ is the High Priest who has entered permanently into the holy place and intercedes for all of mankind who believe in him. We only have to accept the truth and we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ.  If we confess our sins God will forgive us our sins. NOT confess to man but to God through Christ our Lord.

Instead of making daft comments like:

Once again Sass shows her ignorance of the scriptures.

Why not explain why your beliefs are NOT supported by scripture at all but change Christ from the being the intercessor and price for our sins to a mere man playing at intercessor?

[Sassy]

The flipping deity needs to confess its evil deeds and apologise for them, no human is or has been, as bad as it, should it really exist!

It is amazing how loving he is.. He allows you the freedom to speak and believe as you do. Why should he apologise for your freedom and the freedom of those from the past to speak and act as they wish?

You know that what you say and do are accountable for,
Surely you don't believe you are not responsible for your words and actions?

[Alan Burns]

If I were dismissing it out of hand I wouldn't be asking how one could differentiate, I'd just state it was self-deception. I think it is, but I try to be open-minded, so I ask... how would you differentiate?

In short, nothing compares.
I know of devout Muslims and people of other faiths, but they do not experience the real presence of God which I share with many other Christians, and the inner peace and joy we get by knowing God through personal experience.  Then there are the profound answers to prayer which can't be explained away by mere coincidence or selection bias.  I have no need to explore other religions and belief systems because I have found God and there is nothing in this world that can ever take away God's love.

[torridon]

Claiming small children don't have self awareness is just an assertion.

I can remember before I could walk, amazingly actual circumstances that is remembered by my mother who can confirm my memories.

I was as self aware as I am now, just not as knowledgable.

New born babies certainly aren't self-aware, even less a foetus. We all develop cognitive abilities through early childhood; I remember self awareness gradually dawning on me around 5 years old over a period of 6 months or so, and this is fairly average from what I have read.

[ekim]

I know of devout Muslims and people of other faiths, but they do not experience the real presence of God which I share with many other Christians, and the inner peace and joy we get by knowing God through personal experience.

Let's hope your God teaches the pitfalls of spiritual arrogance.

[Shaker]

In short, nothing compares.
I know of devout Muslims and people of other faiths, but they do not experience the real presence of God which I share with many other Christians, and the inner peace and joy we get by knowing God through personal experience.  Then there are the profound answers to prayer which can't be explained away by mere coincidence or selection bias.  I have no need to explore other religions and belief systems because I have found God and there is nothing in this world that can ever take away God's love.

What a special little cupcake.

How incredibly lucky too to have been chosen by the right god.

[Rhiannon]

In short, nothing compares.
I know of devout Muslims and people of other faiths, but they do not experience the real presence of God which I share with many other Christians, and the inner peace and joy we get by knowing God through personal experience.  Then there are the profound answers to prayer which can't be explained away by mere coincidence or selection bias.  I have no need to explore other religions and belief systems because I have found God and there is nothing in this world that can ever take away God's love.

So, why did I lose my faith, and why do I feel more peaceful now that I have?

[torridon]

Animals can react to visual patterns perceived in the brain, but this does not define the conscious perception we experience as humans. As the physical elements of the brain mature and develop, so the soul's perception of brain content will increase.

It is not really conscious perception that differentiates humans from other animals.  It is a significant difference, granted, conscious perception varies qualitatively from species to species. A dog for instance has olfactory perception hundreds of times richer than a human; and who knows what it is like to be a bat seeing through echo location, or a scorpion hearing though its legs ? Conscious perception also varies from individual to individual, as evidenced quite nicely by the dress that broke the internet earlier this year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dress_(viral_phenomenon)

All vertebrates have conscious perception of some quality or other, this is a phenomenon that predates the evolution of humans by at least 500 million years. What really differentiates humans is not conscious perception, but upper cognitive frontal cortex abilities - reading, writing, abstraction, music, contemplation. In contrast to the near universal conscious perception, these higher cognitive functions are considered to be a mere 200,000 years old, and it is the relationship between the newer upper cognitive functions and the older primal emotions common to all animals that give rise to what is called agency in humans, or what is more commonly called free will.  Not that free will is really free in the deepest sense, but we have the feeling of free agency and that is good enough in evolutionary terms.

[ippy]

In short, nothing compares.
I know of devout Muslims and people of other faiths, but they do not experience the real presence of God which I share with many other Christians, and the inner peace and joy we get by knowing God through personal experience.  Then there are the profound answers to prayer which can't be explained away by mere coincidence or selection bias.  I have no need to explore other religions and belief systems because I have found God and there is nothing in this world that can ever take away God's love.

Cloud cuckoo land.

ippy

[SusanDoris]

Cloud cuckoo land.

ippy

As usual, I absolutely agree.

[ippy]

It is amazing how loving he is.. He allows you the freedom to speak and believe as you do. Why should he apologise for your freedom and the freedom of those from the past to speak and act as they wish?

You know that what you say and do are accountable for,
Surely you don't believe you are not responsible for your words and actions?

Sass your post saying: "It is amazing how loving he is.. He allows you the freedom to speak and believe as you do. Why should he apologise for your freedom and the freedom of those from the past to speak and act as they wish"?

If there were a god whatever it is, or there isn't a god whatever it might be, tell me how would you, or anyone else, come to that, know the above?

Answer, you wouldn't.

ippy

 

[floo]

Sass your post saying: "It is amazing how loving he is.. He allows you the freedom to speak and believe as you do. Why should he apologise for your freedom and the freedom of those from the past to speak and act as they wish"?

If there were a god whatever it is, or there isn't a god whatever it might be, tell me how would you, or anyone else, come to that, know the above?

Answer, you wouldn't.

ippy

But that won't stop Sass stating it as fact!