Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

Just a technicality but actually the Bible states that everyone will be resurrected. The difference will be an eternity in relationship with God or an eternity outside of that relationship.

What does that actually mean ?

[Shaker]

God loves Becky more than any of us - Her husband, Andrew, is aware of this as he has shown in his postings.

Do you think the devastation wrought upon her and those around her who love her demonstrates this?

Without his faith he would not have been able to cope with this crisis in the way he has.

So why do so many other people - total non-believers - manage it?

We should not make judgements based upon the shallow precepts of human logic, for God's love is far greater than anything we can imagine.

I am a human and therefore have only human logic to go on. When you can show me there's another kind, we'll talk.

[torridon]

So what drives your imagination?
What is at the source of everything you do or say?
In essence, what makes you "you"?
It is much more than a few electrons buzzing round in your head!

Thoughts and intentions derive from feelings.  Feelings and emotions are indicators of how the body is doing in a biological scale of values.  If I haven't eaten in a while, the feeling of hunger crystallises into a thought 'must visit kebab shop now', the thought turns into motor action and the hunger feeling dies away.  Thoughts and intentions do not arise out of thin air, they are reactions by which we are trying to remedy a situation that has arisen.

[Outrider]

So what drives your imagination?
What is at the source of everything you do or say?
In essence, what makes you "you"?
It is much more than a few electrons buzzing round in your head!

And you justify this... because you don't like the implications of the fact that the evidence suggests we are 'just' electrons buzzing around in our own heads. Not liking the conclusion doesn't invalidate it, you need to suggest a reason why it's wrong. If you want to consider something else you need to provide evidence for something else.

The personal incredulity of 'I can't accept that' not only doesn't actually undermine the evidence we have, it offers nothing as an alternative.

O.

[Outrider]

Without his faith he would not have been able to cope with this crisis in the way he has.

Without the situation, which your god could have either prevented or not caused in the first place, he wouldn't have a crisis to deal with to need faith.

We should not make judgements based upon the shallow precepts of human logic, for God's love is far greater than anything we can imagine.

Logic is not 'human', it's just logic. If A follows from B, it does so regardless of who is watching. Your hypothetical gods might have different perceptions and understandings of reality which show that, in actuality, A doesn't follow B, but logic is not subjective: the perception that produces the information on which logic is applied is subjective.

O.

[Alan Burns]

The personal incredulity of 'I can't accept that' not only doesn't actually undermine the evidence we have, it offers nothing as an alternative.

Personal incredulity could not occur if it had no source to formulate it.  The "I" in your phrase 'I can't accept that' must comprise of an entity capable of making its own decision, even if the decision is deemed to be wrong in your eyes.   This decision making entity which is capable of generating the personal incredulity is the alternative explanation which defies being defined by the buzzing electrons.  Without it there could be no personal incredulity.

[Sassy]

Yeah, well God can do that if he wants.  That comes with omnipotence dontcha know

So you can do what you want to.. Without being omnipotent. Why don't you want to become a believer?

I suppose hindsight is a good thing if you allow the changes require to learn from things. Tell me Torridon, are your choices always right? But at least you have them...

[Outrider]

Personal incredulity could not occur if it had no source to formulate it.  The "I" in your phrase 'I can't accept that' must comprise of an entity capable of making its own decision, even if the decision is deemed to be wrong in your eyes.

Yes.

This decision making entity which is capable of generating the personal incredulity is the alternative explanation which defies being defined by the buzzing electrons.

No. The materialist depiction of personality gives an explanation of that individual.

Without it there could be no personal incredulity.

Why? That's trying to use your personal incredulity of the materialist explanation of the self to justify your personal incredulity.

O.
[/quote]

[Outrider]

Why don't you want to become a believer?

Desire isn't relevant, we don't choose what we believe.

O.

[torridon]

So you can do what you want to.. Without being omnipotent. Why don't you want to become a believer?

I suppose hindsight is a good thing if you allow the changes require to learn from things. Tell me Torridon, are your choices always right? But at least you have them...

I used to be a believer, many years ago.  That's not where I am now; I guess I prefer to try to improve my critical thinking skills now, which means learning respect for evidence, which in turn means denying myself the comfort of neat but always superficial self contained belief systems.

[Alan Burns]

Yes.

No. The materialist depiction of personality gives an explanation of that individual.

Why? That's trying to use your personal incredulity of the materialist explanation of the self to justify your personal incredulity.

O.

So you are implying that my personal incredulity which you have diagnosed is just the inevitable reaction my brain has to all the input data it receives.  And likewise your own "logical" explanation for what I call the human soul is just the inevitable reaction your brain has to all the input data received by you. 

Therefore, in your materialist view, the fact that we have two different opinions on the matter has nothing personal about it - it is just part of the inevitable cause and effect scenario which you have chosen to believe in.  In this scenario I can see no right or wrong, just two sets of inevitable reactions to material events over which there is nothing in control.

The reality I see is that we are two entities of awareness which have control over thought patterns and which are capable of making personal choices.

[ippy]

You may be close to the truth - for I believe your soul drives your imagination.

You're even worse than Hope if that's possible, your statement in this post of yours is bordering on the negative proof idea, so beloved by Hope.

There is room for the irrational and all of the shades in between I suppose?

The only fear I have of people like yourself is where so many of you do your best to ding this nonsense of yours into the heads of our very young children, instead of encouraging them to think for themselves, to persuade vulnerable children of the next generation to be as open minded as we human animals can make them, rather than being fixed on rails like so many, far too many.

ippy

[Outrider]

So you are implying that my personal incredulity that you have diagnosed is just the inevitable reaction my brain has to all the input data it receives.

I'm 'diagnosing' personal incredulity because that's your argument against the depiction of consciousness as an emergent property of the physical human body: you just don't believe that's possible.

And likewise your own "logical" explanation for what I call the human soul is just the inevitable reaction your brain has to all the input data received by you.

Yes, that's my take on it.

Therefore, in your materialist view, the fact that we have two different opinions on the matter has nothing personal about it - it is just part of the inevitable cause and effect scenario which you have chosen to believe in.

Not necessarily. There are people who think that the mind is a facet of the physical body who nonetheless think that we are free agencies - Leonard here on the boards, for instance. Beyond the idea of a physical source of consciousness/mind/'soul' I'm a determinist - I don't see that free will is a viable concept, but that's in addition to the physicality of mind idea.

In this scenario I can see no right or wrong, just two sets of inevitable reactions to material events over which there is nothing in control.

To me they are inevitable reactions, yes - however, being exposed to new ideas can, itself, cause inevitable reactions which result in changed opinions. Of course, the interactions are so many, so opaque and so subtle that we're unable to completely accurately predict them, but it's possible.

The reality I see is that we are two entities of awareness which have control over thought patterns and which are capable of making personal choices.

Except that you don't 'see' that. You can only 'see' one entity - you are presuming a second because you can't believe that the first is sufficient for the behaviours that we see. That lack of belief, in itself, isn't a valid argument against the physical depiction of mind, and you've not offered anything that could be considered evidence for a non-physical component.

I cannot, definitively, say that your depiction is wrong, it's internally consistent, it's just that there's no evidence to support it, and no 'gap' in the explanation for which we do have evidence that would require something else.

O.

[ippy]

More nonsense Alan:

"The reality I see is that we are two entities of awareness which have control over thought patterns and which are capable of".

We've only one awareness, when the brain is switched off it's game over there is no valid reason to think otherwise, a part of that awareness is imagination, do you know I was imagining, I'm posting on the R & E Forum and I was trying to rationalise with the rational, but no it was you Alan.

I bet you think you're doing this god thing of yours work for she, him or it, by facing off all of those Devil inspired people you refer to as atheists; just think of all those brownie points, special seat up there in your imaginary heaven, who knows, sorry, of course the god thingy knows, oh yea.   

We all have our barmy moments Alan, some have a lot more than others.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

More nonsense Alan:

"The reality I see is that we are two entities of awareness which have control over thought patterns and which are capable of".

We've only one awareness, when the brain is switched off it's game over there is no valid reason to think otherwise, a part of that awareness is imagination, do you know I was imagining, I'm posting on the R & E Forum and I was trying to rationalise with the rational, but no it was you Alan.

I bet you think you're doing this god thing of yours work for she, him or it, by facing off all of those Devil inspired people you refer to as atheists; just think of all those brownie points, special seat up there in your imaginary heaven, who knows, sorry, of course the god thingy knows, oh yea.   

We all have our barmy moments Alan, some have a lot more than others.

ippy

When I said we are two entities of awareness I was refering to myself and Outrider as two separate entities.  What identifies us as separate entities are our souls which act outside the continuum of the material properties of this universe.

[SusanDoris]

When I said we are two entities of awareness I was refering to myself and Outrider as two separate entities.  What identifies us as separate entities are our souls which act outside the continuum of the material properties of this universe.

The aspect of each individual's living being which has come to be referred to as 'soul' doesn't 'act', it is a totally integrated part of us within our body and mind and most decidedly not outside. *sigh*

[ippy]

When I said we are two entities of awareness I was refering to myself and Outrider as two separate entities.  What identifies us as separate entities are our souls which act outside the continuum of the material properties of this universe.

You can only imagine an idea of a soul, I assume you must know that because there is no evidence that supports the idea of a soul, it remains an idea and that's all. That goes for all of us.

Religious belief remains in the cranky potty area for me, I bet if you stuck it all in the bin other than the social side of religious belief, it wouldn't make the slightest difference to your life.

We all try to live a ethical and moral life I've packed up murdering people, stopped tripping up old frail ladies in the street, all without having any connection with religion or religious practices.

Joking aside I'm always aware of my own moral or ethical rational, such as; I would like to think by my own actions I've  in the end left this world a little bit of a better place than it was when I entered and I certainly didn't need any silly doctrine to help me have those thoughts nor does anyone else need it nor are my thought on these matters anything out of the ordinary.

Don't tell me, Your god thingy designed us to think this way, it's mad that's what it is, totally way out barmy.

ippy. 

[Leonard James]

You can only imagine an idea of a soul, I assume you must know that because there is no evidence that supports the idea of a soul, it remains an idea and that's all. That goes for all of us.

Religious belief remains in the cranky potty area for me, I bet if you stuck it all in the bin other than the social side of religious belief, it wouldn't make the slightest difference to your life.

We all try to live a ethical and moral life I've packed up murdering people, stopped tripping up old frail ladies in the street, all without having any connection with religion or religious practices.

Joking aside I'm always aware of my own moral or ethical rational, such as; I would like to think by my own actions I've  in the end left this world a little bit of a better place than it was when I entered and I certainly didn't need any silly doctrine to help me have those thoughts nor does anyone else need it nor are my thought on these matters anything out of the ordinary.

Don't tell me, Your god thingy designed us to think this way, it's mad that's what it is totally way out barmy.

ippy.

Talk to the trees, Ippy! 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You can only imagine an idea of a soul, I assume you must know that because there is no evidence that supports the idea of a soul, it remains an idea and that's all. That goes for all of us.

Religious belief remains in the cranky potty area for me, I bet if you stuck it all in the bin other than the social side of religious belief, it wouldn't make the slightest difference to your life.

We all try to live a ethical and moral life I've packed up murdering people, stopped tripping up old frail ladies in the street, all without having any connection with religion or religious practices.

Joking aside I'm always aware of my own moral or ethical rational, such as; I would like to think by my own actions I've  in the end left this world a little bit of a better place than it was when I entered and I certainly didn't need any silly doctrine to help me have those thoughts nor does anyone else need it nor are my thought on these matters anything out of the ordinary.

Don't tell me, Your god thingy designed us to think this way, it's mad that's what it is totally way out barmy.

ippy.

While reading this I found myself wondering how it would read with sound effects.

[ippy]

Talk to the trees, Ippy! 

Yes Len as I wrote the last line, I thought that god idea of his supports his own delusion, "Catch 22".

Regards ippy

[ippy]

While reading this I found myself wondering how it would read with sound effects.

Yes Vlad, try "Dance of the Cuckoos", Laurel and Hardy, it's totally in tune with Alan's ideas.   

ippy

[Alan Burns]

The aspect of each individual's living being which has come to be referred to as 'soul' doesn't 'act', it is a totally integrated part of us within our body and mind and most decidedly not outside. *sigh*

It is integrated by the fact that it controls our mind and body.

[Leonard James]

Yes Len as I wrote the last line, I thought that god idea of his supports his own delusion, "Catch 22".

Regards ippy

I have known Alan for many years (online), and know that he is a kind, sincere man.

It is unfortunate that he has convinced himself that his "God" exists and is constantly 'there' for him, but if all religious people were like him, the world would be a better place than it is right now.

[SusanDoris]

I have known Alan for many years (online), and know that he is a kind, sincere man.

It is unfortunate that he has convinced himself that his "God" exists and is constantly 'there' for him, but if all religious people were like him, the world would be a better place than it is right now.

I know what you mean, but, you know, I think I disagree here. If people were like him, then those who realise how to control those who defer to non-existent gods would be able with ease to increase their power and influence and thus be able to manipulate them. Also, what about the children who would also be indoctrinated into believing they must do what some god says etc. I wonder how much responsibility Alan has to accept for whatever he has done in life to cause children to believe in God? This is a question I have some concerns about since when I was teaching, I still had a belief in a God/force/power-out-there-somewhere, but I am pretty sure I never said that this was absolutely true, I only said I personally believed that, but did not mean it was true for them.

[ippy]

I have known Alan for many years (online), and know that he is a kind, sincere man.

It is unfortunate that he has convinced himself that his "God" exists and is constantly 'there' for him, but if all religious people were like him, the world would be a better place than it is right now.

Thank you Len, the only thing about people like him and I totally accept what you say about him, is this driven mission to spread the word, which when adults are involved, well, no matter how daft I think it is at least adults have the ability to challenge, well you'd think they would have, trouble is when they insistently pick on vulnerable young children.

Trying to put religions or any other stuff of nonsense into these peoples heads, isn't right and not fair on them, these young people are continuing to fall victim to their system, I think this is another, particularly reprehensible, part of all religions that really stinks.

So no matter how good an egg Alan may well be, the above needs to be addressed, they're all as guilty as one and other on this score.   

ippy

 P S I note Susan has posted at about the same time as me on this subject, more or less echoing a similar pov.