Searching for GOD...

[Nearly Sane]

There is an irony in the chilled antiseptic use of such terms as indoctrination and guilt when complaining about people teaching their beliefs as certain.

[Sassy]

Talk about speaking about someone in the third person not there.

Come on guys can you really think being so condescending is okay?

Alan is ok, but your posts regarding him is not.

It is rude and arrogant to even conceive the notion that he is okay but deluded because he is a believer.

[Leonard James]

Hi Susan and Ippy,

Yes, I agree with you, but whilst religious people exist, it would be better if they were all like Alan.

Sadly, it is perfectly natural that he would teach his children what he believes is the truth ... and unfortunately there is no way to prevent people doing so.

[Leonard James]

Talk about speaking about someone in the third person not there.

Come on guys can you really think being so condescending is okay?

Alan is ok, but your posts regarding him is not.

It is rude and arrogant to even conceive the notion that he is okay but deluded because he is a believer.

What word would YOU use for people who believe in the existence of "God" when there is no evidence to back the belief up?

[torridon]

It is integrated by the fact that it controls our mind and body.

I'd be pretty pissed off if I could sense something external controling my mind or body

[Outrider]

When I said we are two entities of awareness I was refering to myself and Outrider as two separate entities.  What identifies us as separate entities are our souls which act outside the continuum of the material properties of this universe.

You keep saying that, but you've offered no justification for it.

As I've pointed out, your sense of incredulity at the purely physical explanation for consciousness and awareness isn't evidence FOR your idea, even if it were a valid objection at all.

O.

[Outrider]

It is integrated by the fact that it controls our mind and body.

And this is deduced from what? On what basis do you reject the material explanation, with its supporting evidence and no apparent unexplained phenomena, with yours? How does the soul 'control' our minds without leaving any trace in the physical activities of the brain?

How does introducing 'souls' somehow bypass the oxymoronic nature of the idea of free will in the first place?

O.

[ippy]

Hi Susan and Ippy,

Yes, I agree with you, but whilst religious people exist, it would be better if they were all like Alan.

Sadly, it is perfectly natural that he would teach his children what he believes is the truth ... and unfortunately there is no way to prevent people doing so.

Len, Of course it's natural as you say and if it was only their own children, I still don't think it's right, it's a bitter pill to me seeing them do it.

If they were to stop there with their own youngsters and leave the rest to their own devices, it wouldn't be as bad, but unfortunately as you and I know_________

ippy

[ippy]

It is integrated by the fact that it controls our mind and body.

It'd be a much better idea if you found some way to present it as a credible idea, for that's all it is Alan, an unsubstantiatable idea, if not enlighten us.

ippy

[floo]

Talk about speaking about someone in the third person not there.

Come on guys can you really think being so condescending is okay?

Alan is ok, but your posts regarding him is not.

It is rude and arrogant to even conceive the notion that he is okay but deluded because he is a believer.

We might not see it Alan's way but he seems like a very decent guy, you might do well to emulate his decency!

[Alan Burns]

Hi Susan and Ippy,

Yes, I agree with you, but whilst religious people exist, it would be better if they were all like Alan.

Sadly, it is perfectly natural that he would teach his children what he believes is the truth ... and unfortunately there is no way to prevent people doing so.

Thanks for your support and kind words Len, and may I add that the world would be a better place if more atheists were like yourself.   

[ippy]

Talk about speaking about someone in the third person not there.

Come on guys can you really think being so condescending is okay?

Alan is ok, but your posts regarding him is not.

It is rude and arrogant to even conceive the notion that he is okay but deluded because he is a believer.

If anyone needed some examples of deluded people Sass, who would you put forward as really good, far gone, examples.

I can think of at the very least a half a dozen that post here on this forum and that's not including you Sass.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

It'd be a much better idea if you found some way to present it as a credible idea, for that's all it is Alan, an unsubstantiatable idea, if not enlighten us.

ippy

So if the soul is not in control, what is?
Natural events do not control anything - they just induce predictable reactions.  In the deterministic world there can be no control.  But my deepest perception of reality tells me that I can control my thoughts and many of my actions.  To comply with this perception the contoller (me) is not restrained by deterministic events, but is free to induce whatever events are needed to fulfill my conscious will.

[Alan Burns]

I'd be pretty pissed off if I could sense something external controling my mind or body

But the "I" in your sentence would be what is in control, so if it senses itself, it is not external.

[Alan Burns]

There is an irony in the chilled antiseptic use of such terms as indoctrination and guilt when complaining about people teaching their beliefs as certain.

I hate the idea of indoctrination.  I would never try to force my beliefs on anyone.  I will just present them with the facts and allow them to make their own minds up.  God wants us to freely turn to Him - it is why He gave us the gift of free will.

[savillerow]

Msg6723 AB "its why he gave us the gift of free will" There's about 3 things wrong with this statement. It's all getting a bit circular I'm afraid.

[ippy]

So if the soul is not in control, what is?
Natural events do not control anything - they just induce predictable reactions.  In the deterministic world there can be no control.  But my deepest perception of reality tells me that I can control my thoughts and many of my actions.  To comply with this perception the contoller (me) is not restrained by deterministic events, but is free to induce whatever events are needed to fulfill my conscious will.

Well first, this post of yours Alan doesn't answer the question I asked.

It's natural for our brains to be in control of all our actions; I could say if the cadybidybump is not in control, what is?  This would be equally as sensible as the things you say.

If I had said the cadybidybump, is always there in background it was supplied to me by the Great Ting and his son, what would be the next question needed to lend credibility to my statement?

Likewise for something you should be supplying and that's the trouble Alan, you, like the rest of the religiosos on the forum have never supplied anything credible that supports your ideas and the chances are that you will, are so slim that they might just as well not be there.

ippy

[~TW~]

Well first, this post of yours Alan doesn't answer the question I asked.

It's natural for our brains to be in control of all our actions; I could say if the cadybidybump is not in control, what is?  This would be equally as sensible as the things you say.

If I had said the cadybidybump, is always there in background it was supplied to me by the Great Ting and his son, what would be the next question needed to lend credibility to my statement?

Likewise for something you should be supplying and that's the trouble Alan, you, like the rest of the religiosos on the forum have never supplied anything credible that supports your ideas and the chances are that you will, are so slim that they might just as well not be there.

ippy

 So ippy go on give us a clue what might help you to see? something

 ~TW~

[Alan Burns]

In my experience, I find that children are very good at making their own mind up about such things as religious faith.  A close friend of mine and his wife are staunch atheists, but their daughter has grown up to be a comitted Christian.  And I know of several strong Christian parents whose children have rejected their faith.

The ideal role model for parenthood for me is the father depicted in the story of the prodigal son.  He allows his wayward son to make his own choices in life, but never gives up hope that he will come to his senses and return to his father's love.  And of course this reflects God's love for us in allowing us to make our own choices, but ultimately hoping that we will freely return to His love.

[Alan Burns]

It's natural for our brains to be in control of all our actions

But how can your brain be in control if all events within your brain are induced by natural predictable reactions to previous events?

[ippy]

In my experience, I find that children are very good at making their own mind up about such things as religious faith.  A close friend of mine and his wife are staunch atheists, but their daughter has grown up to be a comitted Christian.  And I know of several strong Christian parents whose children have rejected their faith.

The ideal role model for parenthood for me is the father depicted in the story of the prodigal son.  He allows his wayward son to make his own choices in life, but never gives up hope that he will come to his senses and return to his father's love.  And of course this reflects God's love for us in allowing us to make our own choices, but ultimately hoping that we will freely return to His love.

Yes anecdotal evidence but it doesn't amount to much.

The psychology of human behaviour works on average numbers and presenting any ideas to the young before they have acquired the ability to challenge is a successful method of indoctrinating our fellows, why do you think this isn't the aim of schooling the young with religion as a part of the keeping up the numbers, a recruiting method? There's very few that are dim enough to not see this.

ippy   

[Leonard James]

But how can your brain be in control if all events within your brain are induced by natural predictable reactions to previous events?

Quite easily, Alan. We make our choices according to our previous experiences of the results our choices bring. Having once learned that touching flames can cause us pain, we avoid them whenever we can.

However, we can of course be mistaken. You believe God answers prayers because things you have prayed for have  come true, ignoring the fact that most of them are perfectly reasonably explained by coincidence. The ones that don't get answered you cover up by saying that God knows what is best for you.

Christianity has it all nicely tied up for you. 

[ippy]

But how can your brain be in control if all events within your brain are induced by natural predictable reactions to previous events?

What other way can our brains work, it's natural to have a percentage of people with limited abilities, why would their actions controlled by their limited brains not be natural to them?

As for where you have brought predictable up from?

Go to Dr VC Ramachandran on YouTube he describes this in a far better way than I can, the misconceptions you, it seems to me, have about how our brains work. 

ippy

[Shaker]

I hate the idea of indoctrination.  I would never try to force my beliefs on anyone.  I will just present them with the facts

Such as when?

[Alan Burns]

As for where you have brought predictable up from?

Predictable in the sense that science is able to predict the outcome of an event.  So if all events in your brain are the natural consequece of previous events, then everything in your brain will be predicted by the laws of science.  Hence there is no control, just predictable consequences to events.