Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

Predictable in the sense that science is able to predict the outcome of an event.  So if all events in your brain are the natural consequece of previous events, then everything in your brain will be predicted by the laws of science.

That could only be the case, Alan, if science had come to an end because human beings had discovered absolutely everything there is to know in every respect. We both know that that isn't the case. Science doesn't predict stuff in the way that you appear to think it does; certainly it makes predictions which can be tested and therefore can be passed as provisionally true or falsified.

[ippy]

Predictable in the sense that science is able to predict the outcome of an event.  So if all events in your brain are the natural consequece of previous events, then everything in your brain will be predicted by the laws of science.  Hence there is no control, just predictable consequences to events.

Attempting to indoctrinate young children before they have reached an age where they have acqired the ability to challenge, works well on average, that much is predictable, a fact well known by religious organisations.

Key words on average, a good percentage, my feelings on this kind of thing are to encourage children into thinking for themselves, whilst they are in those early years of life and then like the rest of us they wont be able to avoid religions in the end.

If the religions wont leave the very young alone during those early years, why, is it an intentional attempt to indoctrinate,  lack of confidence that if they don't get them young enough, is it if they do start thinking for themselves, the game's up and perhaps game over?

ippy

[~TW~]

What rubbish comes from this thread is out of this world pure nonsense and a total loss/lack, of understanding anything about God.Christians are chosen that is the message of scripture and it happens to be true.
~TW~

[SusanDoris]

Yes anecdotal evidence but it doesn't amount to much.

The psychology of human behaviour works on average numbers and presenting any ideas to the young before they have acquired the ability to challenge is a successful method of indoctrinating our fellows, why do you think this isn't the aim of schooling the young with religion as a part of the keeping up the numbers, a recruiting method? There's very few that are dim enough to not see this.

ippy

I clicked the 'quote' link to respond to AB's post, but sighed and gave up before starting to type! So I was so pleased to see your reply as the next post!

[SusanDoris]

AB

Okay, I've had another think with regard to indoctrination of children. People with religious beliefs such as yours, if asked by a child whether God is true, or loves them, or listens to prayers, or 'wants' something, then your reply will be with the conviction that the God you believe in is a truth, and exists. Since you will not also say to the child, 'Well, many people believe this is true, but of course there are also many who believe differently and that God is just a human idea,. We'll think about all this as you grow up and then you can decide,' will you?  You might not call that indoctrination, but the result can be considered as the same.

[Rhiannon]

The problem is that if somebody really does believe that faith in Christ leads to salvation, then not to teach that to their children is potentially allowing them to fall into damnation.

[Sassy]

What word would YOU use for people who believe in the existence of "God" when there is no evidence to back the belief up?

Close minded is what your post represents.
As believers we have EVIDENCE to back up our belief.
Because you don't want to believe and therefore receive the evidence for yourself, that is something you decide for yourself.
But it does not mean that believers believe without evidence.
Truth is you won't accept even the merest possibility we have that evidence.
It is your problem alone and not the believers.

[Sassy]

I'd be pretty pissed off if I could sense something external controling my mind or body

It empowers , it does NOT control.
Wrong thinking on your part, Torridon.

[Sassy]

We might not see it Alan's way but he seems like a very decent guy, you might do well to emulate his decency!

Which decency is that? I am a decent person I even allow atheist to believe in what they believe. I guess the truth is that you and the others are using the devils guile.
Thinking to divide and conquer with the flattering lips..

Psalm 12:2-3
They speak falsehood to one another; With flattering lips and with a double heart they speak. May the LORD cut off all flattering lips, The tongue that speaks great things;

Psalm 5:9
Verse Concepts
There is nothing reliable in what they say; Their inward part is destruction itself Their throat is an open grave; They flatter with their tongue.

Psalm 55:20-21
He has put forth his hands against those who were at peace with him; He has violated his covenant. His speech was smoother than butter, But his heart was war; His words were softer than oil, Yet they were drawn swords.
Psalm 62:4
Verse Concepts
They have counseled only to thrust him down from his high position; They delight in falsehood; They bless with their mouth, But inwardly they curse. Selah.



Your judgement and that of others is corrupt and the use of flattery fell flat on it's face posts ago.

Probably best everyone ceased now. Because neither I or other believers have behaved without decency as you put it. But your posts are rude and even insulting.
I guess sometimes the forest in your own eye prevents you seeing the speck in another persons eye.

Where you and others fail is that Alan will tell the truth and your flattery will not turn him away from the Lord. But you need to be aware of what happens to those none believers who appear to use flattery and yet as your post shows the perfect example:-

Psalm 55:20-21
He has put forth his hands against those who were at peace with him; He has violated his covenant. His speech was smoother than butter, But his heart was war; His words were softer than oil, Yet they were drawn swords.

Light and darkness cannot live in the same place. What you say about Alan is not a compliment to him. Because for the darkness to agree with the light is an impossibility.

[Sassy]

If anyone needed some examples of deluded people Sass, who would you put forward as really good, far gone, examples.

I can think of at the very least a half a dozen that post here on this forum and that's not including you Sass.

ippy

Until your example of deluded becomes more than mere opinion about believers.
Then there is no truth is there and no evidence to condemn anyone.
Which means that opinion; yours in this case has no basis or truth in it to matter.

[torridon]

It empowers , it does NOT control.
Wrong thinking on your part, Torridon.

well, I agree that would be a slight improvement on Alan's idea that some invisible external entity has taken over my mind and body.

[torridon]

What rubbish comes from this thread is out of this world pure nonsense and a total loss/lack, of understanding anything about God.Christians are chosen that is the message of scripture and it happens to be true.
~TW~

Don't you secretly wish that God didn't practice favouritism ? Being 'chosen' plays to our inherent narcissism, it creates jealousies, it sets brother against sister and father against son, and ultimately nation against nation.

[torridon]

Predictable in the sense that science is able to predict the outcome of an event.  So if all events in your brain are the natural consequece of previous events, then everything in your brain will be predicted by the laws of science.  Hence there is no control, just predictable consequences to events.

You ought to value predictability.  Try living in an unpredictable cosmos for a couple of days, you would hate it.

[~TW~]

Don't you secretly wish that God didn't practice favouritism ? Being 'chosen' plays to our inherent narcissism, it creates jealousies, it sets brother against sister and father against son, and ultimately nation against nation.

No just remember God is God and all things work together in him and for him.Also remember if he decides to choose you you will know it,so get on with your life .

~TW~

[torridon]

But how can your brain be in control if all events within your brain are induced by natural predictable reactions to previous events?

What you call 'control' in this context is really the brain's ability to react in ways that are far more nuanced and sophisticated than the simpler and older system of inbred instincts. The fact that humans can overide instinctive responses with far more insightful responses is what we commonly call 'agency' or 'free will', but even free will is not truly and totally free because that would define our responses as random, which would be totally unhelpful.  The path from cause to effect is often harder to see in choices made through agency but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[torridon]

No just remember God is God and all things work together in him and for him.Also remember if he decides to choose you you will know it,so get on with your life .

~TW~

Man up TW, you're just a sycophant lacking the backbone to call God out

[~TW~]

Man up TW, you're just a sycophant lacking the backbone to call God out

 Go and play with your dolls this discussion is to high for you.

 ~TW~

[Outrider]

So if the soul is not in control, what is?

Of what?

Natural events do not control anything - they just induce predictable reactions.

You've yet to demonstrate that we aren't a complex set of entirely predictable reactions. The weather is a complex set of individually predictable reactions, interactions and feedback loops.

In the deterministic world there can be no control.  But my deepest perception of reality tells me that I can control my thoughts and many of my actions.

Human perception is fallible.

To comply with this perception the contoller (me) is not restrained by deterministic events, but is free to induce whatever events are needed to fulfill my conscious will.

Controller of what? Your subjective appreciation of 'will' is only part of the story of what's going on in your mind at any given moment.

O.

[Outrider]

Which decency is that? I am a decent person I even allow atheist to believe in what they believe.

Well how gracious of you to comply with the concept of freedom of belief...

I guess the truth is that you and the others are using the devils guile.

Inadvertently, at best, given that we don't believe in that second of the four deities in your monotheistic worldview...

Where you and others fail is that Alan will tell the truth and your flattery will not turn him away from the Lord.

And yet that truth is so self-evident that you, and Alan, and the other believers trot out a variety of different, contradictory explanations for what various bits mean, almost as though that truth concept were subjective.

O.

[floo]

No just remember God is God and all things work together in him and for him.Also remember if he decides to choose you you will know it,so get on with your life .

~TW~

A meaningless phrase!

[Alan Burns]

One of the recurrant points made on this thread is "If He exists, why does God not intervene more often to help us"

At Mass this morning I was struck by the profound nature of our gift of freedom.  Just going back to the parable of the prodigal son, the father not only allows his son to choose, but he does not intervene even when he knows that there will be bad consequences to his son's choices.  He allows His son to suffer the consequences, but his love is still constant as he waits patiently, hoping for his return.  And when his son does turn back to him, there is no punishment waiting for squandering his inheritace - because the father knows he has learnt his lesson.  So there is no need for punishment or retribution. 

What this implies is that all our earthly experiences, good or bad, including bad consequences to our free choices, are part of a learning process in preparation for meeting our Father in heaven.

Remember, there will be great rejoicing in Heaven whenever a wayward soul returns.

[torridon]

Go and play with your dolls this discussion is to high for you.

 ~TW~

  

I know, lets have a count up shall we, and see just how many deep and insightful contributions you have made to this thread.

[torridon]

One of the recurrant points made on this thread is "If He exists, why does God not intervene more often to help us"

At Mass this morning I was struck by the profound nature of our gift of freedom.  Just going back to the parable of the prodigal son, the father not only allows his son to choose, but he does not intervene even when he knows that there will be bad consequences to his son's choices.  He allows His son to suffer the consequences, but his love is still constant as he waits patiently, hoping for his return.  And when his son does turn back to him, there is no punishment waiting for squandering his inheritace - because the father knows he has learnt his lesson.  So there is no need for punishment or retribution. 

What this implies is that all our earthly experiences, good or bad, including bad consequences to our free choices, are part of a learning process in preparation for meeting our Father in heaven.

Remember, there will be great rejoicing in Heaven whenever a wayward soul returns.

I don't see that trying to think clearly, paying due respect to evidence and reason, counts as being 'wayward'. It counts as being honest.

[Outrider]

One of the recurrant points made on this thread is "If He exists, why does God not intervene more often to help us"

At Mass this morning I was struck by the profound nature of our gift of freedom.  Just going back to the parable of the prodigal son, the father not only allows his son to choose, but he does not intervene even when he knows that there will be bad consequences to his son's choices.  He allows His son to suffer the consequences, but his love is still constant as he waits patiently, hoping for his return.  And when his son does turn back to him, there is no punishment waiting for squandering his inheritace - because the father knows he has learnt his lesson.  So there is no need for punishment or retribution. 

What this implies is that all our earthly experiences, good or bad, including bad consequences to our free choices, are part of a learning process in preparation for meeting our Father in heaven.

Remember, there will be great rejoicing in Heaven whenever a wayward soul returns.

The difference is, though, the prodigal son moves away from his father, suffers because of his own poor decisions and returns to his father who loves him and shows it.

The comparison is a father (God) who is hiding from us, and when we are forcibly returned to him by death, regardless of whether we've been unwise or not, we are condemned BY HIM.

If people do 'find' him before that, he doesn't actually offer any help, he doesn't improve their lot, he just makes vague assertions about a possible future life without any evidence.

Those differences are quite important in the implications.

O.

[~TW~]

The difference is, though, the prodigal son moves away from his father, suffers because of his own poor decisions and returns to his father who loves him and shows it.

The comparison is a father (God) who is hiding from us, and when we are forcibly returned to him by death, regardless of whether we've been unwise or not, we are condemned BY HIM.

If people do 'find' him before that, he doesn't actually offer any help, he doesn't improve their lot, he just makes vague assertions about a possible future life without any evidence.

Those differences are quite important in the implications.

O.

 Well if you were right- yes. But you are wrong,how do I know I experience God daily.

  ~TW~