Searching for GOD...

[Leonard James]

But can't you see that the beneficial mutations are still vulnerable to elimination by the overwhelming number of detrimental mutations which will occur in future generations.  They are not immune.

You seem to think that mutations are contagious, Alan, when they are nothing of the kind. An organism is in no way affected by detrimental mutations in other members of its group, and it will continue to grow, reproduce and sometimes mutate ... but is never influenced by the mutation in others of its kind.

[Bubbles]

Of course they are not immune, but you have failed to understand my explanation. No matter how many organisms die through detrimental mutations, those that don't will still continue to multiply and evolve. In fact if there were no killing mutations, life would become extinct, since the resources to continue would quickly become exhausted. So detrimental mutations are an essential for evolution to continue.

Nonsense. The problem is that humans have been around to observe it for only the blink of an eye in the enormous time span necessary for major changes to be observed.

You can see it fruit flies which have a much shorter lifespan

[Bubbles]

The creationists deny it

http://www.icr.org/article/no-fruit-fly-evolution-even-after-600/


But a quick look shows they didn't look very hard or consider what the experiments implied over a large time period.

Experimental results: The first steps of speciation have been produced in several laboratory experiments involving "geographic" isolation. For example, Diane Dodd examined the effects of geographic isolation and selection on fruit flies. She took fruit flies from a single population and divided them into separate populations living in different cages to simulate geographic isolation. Half of the populations lived on maltose-based food, and the other populations lived on starch-based foods. After many generations, the flies were tested to see which flies they preferred to mate with. Dodd found that some reproductive isolation had occurred as a result of the geographic isolation and selection for different food sources in the two environments: "maltose flies" preferred other "maltose flies," and "starch flies" preferred other "starch flies." Although, we can't be sure, these preference differences probably existed because selection for using different food sources also affected certain genes involved in reproductive behavior. This is the sort of result we'd expect, if allopatric speciation were a typical mode of speciation.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_45

The creationist site has no evidence to offer, just misinformation ......and mis interpretation 

[ippy]

Look up the papers about the "Peppered Moth" Alan, it's very simple explanation about how evolution works all backed up with the necessary evidence, who knows you might climb down?

ippy

[Alan Burns]

Go and look into the mirror Alan, you'l see evidence there and all around if you allow yourself to see life as it is

And I hope that when you look in a mirror your eyes will be opened to experience the wonder and awe at the unimaginable creative powers that brought you into existence from the lifeless raw materials of this earth, and that you will be able to appreciate the miracle that allows you to be aware of your own existence and to control your own destiny.

[Alan Burns]

You seem to think that mutations are contagious, Alan, when they are nothing of the kind. An organism is in no way affected by detrimental mutations in other members of its group, and it will continue to grow, reproduce and sometimes mutate ... but is never influenced by the mutation in others of its kind.

I am not saying they are contageous, I was just pointing out that the incremental survival advantage given by a beneficial mutation will still have to survive past an unknown number of detrimental mutations in future generations.  It is not difficult to understand.

The explanation that they must have survived because there is no God to intervene is not a watertight argument.

[Leonard James]

The creationists deny it

http://www.icr.org/article/no-fruit-fly-evolution-even-after-600/


But a quick look shows they didn't look very hard or consider what the experiments implied over a large time period.

The creationist site has no evidence to offer, just misinformation ......and mis interpretation 

I fear many people are still taken in by them, so we can only wait for education on the subject to take hold.

[Leonard James]

I am not saying they are contageous, I was just pointing out that the incremental survival advantage given by a beneficial mutation will still have to survive past an unknown number of detrimental mutations in future generations.  It is not difficult to understand.

No, Alan, it won't HAVE to survive, and obviously many don't, but there are still sufficient numbers that do survive to carry on and evolve further. And if they don't, they become extinct. It is not difficult to understand.

The explanation that they must have survived because there is no God to intervene is not a watertight argument.

No intelligent person would use such a daft argument. Anyway, it isn't necessary, because the theory stands on its own merit.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I fear many people are still taken in by them, so we can only wait for education on the subject to take hold.

Yes as part of an overall increase in the awareness of science. Which hopefully will steer people away from the popular misconceptions that atheism equals science and that methodological materialism equals philosophical materialism......as peddled by many on this forum although they deny it.

 But then that is just evidence of their ability to hold contradictory ideas.

[Bubbles]

And I hope that when you look in a mirror your eyes will be opened to experience the wonder and awe at the unimaginable creative powers that brought you into existence from the lifeless raw materials of this earth, and that you will be able to appreciate the miracle that allows you to be aware of your own existence and to control your own destiny.

I think it is the jump from the raw lifeless materials to the very first life form that is difficult to explain, not once it got going.

Once you have algae or whatever came first, the rest isn't an issue IMO.

It's inanimate matter to something else that puzzles me.

Scientists won't know for sure life's  a fore gone conclusion that given the right conditions life will form until they find some somewhere else.

They don't yet know it exists elsewhere yet, not for sure 100%

Although I reckon it's pretty certain it does.

[Shaker]

And I hope that when you look in a mirror your eyes will be opened to experience the wonder and awe at the unimaginable creative powers that brought you into existence from the lifeless raw materials of this earth, and that you will be able to appreciate the miracle that allows you to be aware of your own existence and to control your own destiny.

Evolution is amazing, isn't it? (Skipping the hyperbole about 'unimaginable' and the bog-standard trope of 'miracle,' of course)

[Leonard James]

I think it is the jump from the raw lifeless materials to the very first life form that is difficult to explain, not once it got going.

Once you have algae or whatever came first, the rest isn't an issue IMO.

It's inanimate matter to something else that puzzles me.

Scientists won't know for sure life's  a fore gone conclusion that given the right conditions life will form until they find some somewhere else.

They don't yet know it exists elsewhere yet, not for sure 100%

Although I reckon it's pretty certain it does.

And even if they never find out how it happened, there is no point in guessing an answer.

[Bubbles]

And even if they never find out how it happened, there is no point in guessing an answer.

Oh I dunno!

One can speculate 

No point in not speculating either, really 

🌹

[Leonard James]

Oh I dunno!

One can speculate 

No point in not speculating either, really 

🌹

If you have nothing better to pass your time on, I suppose so. 

[Bubbles]

If you have nothing better to pass your time on, I suppose so. 

As a child I used to spend hours speculating on black holes, drove my parents nuts 

It's a bit like coming on here, speculating, I've obviously got to much free time ( hubby thinks so, anyway) 

[Leonard James]

As a child I used to spend hours speculating on black holes, drove my parents nuts 

Blimey, Rose, when I was a child I don't think anybody had heard of such a thing.

We had a coal cellar which was very near it. 

[Alan Burns]

I already covered this for you in 6428.  This is the nature of selection. Granted, in humans with our universal health care, deleterious mutations could accumulate, but broadly speaking in nature, selection is the sharp process by which 'beneficial' mutations are conserved and deleterious ones are discarded and so do not 'overwhelm' anything.

I read and understood the arguments put forward, but I have to say that I remain unconvinced by them.  You must see that beneficial mutations have a very slim chance of surviving past numerous detrimental mutations that will inevitably occur in future generations.  Any survival advantage can easily be wiped out, and most people will appreciate that random unguided forces will produce many magnitudes more detrimental mutations than beneficial ones.  I know there is no way of providing total proof on either side, but I remain convinced that God has been intimately involved with the process of bringing us into existence.

[Shaker]

Natural selection isn't random in the way that you think it is, though, Alan.

It's a two-step process, partly random, partly not - in Jacques Monod's famous terms, (genetic) chance and (environmental) necessity.

Additionally, your assertion that a survival advantage would be wiped out suggests that you don't actually understand the concept of a survival advantage.

[Alan Burns]

Scientists won't know for sure life's  a fore gone conclusion that given the right conditions life will form until they find some somewhere else.

They don't yet know it exists elsewhere yet, not for sure 100%

Although I reckon it's pretty certain it does.

I am certain that it will only exist if God wants it to exist

[Bubbles]

Blimey, Rose, when I was a child I don't think anybody had heard of such a thing.

We had a coal cellar which was very near it. 

Back in the 60's theories abounded.

http://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_blackholes_theory.html

I was into all that as a child, loved science fiction.

Still do, but have learnt to recognise the signs of my listeners glazing over and falling asleep.

[ippy]

And I hope that when you look in a mirror your eyes will be opened to experience the wonder and awe at the unimaginable creative powers that brought you into existence from the lifeless raw materials of this earth, and that you will be able to appreciate the miracle that allows you to be aware of your own existence and to control your own destiny.

Oh yes that's me, I have trouble avoiding the autograph hunters every time I go out of the front door, oh sorry, I forgot it's not that; you're having trouble understanding how evolution works.

Perhaps one day when you recover from this dream like world you seem to be in, you might come down to Earth and realise just because we don'know something it has to be a godidit.

If you try looking into the peppered moth you'll find it's a classic easily understood example of how evolution works, all supplied with the evidence that backs it up.

Evidence that backs it up with, you know, evidence, the stuff you can't find to back up your religious belief claims.

ippy

[ippy]

Blimey, Rose, when I was a child I don't think anybody had heard of such a thing.

We had a coal cellar which was very near it. 

Len, so I've heard, a black hole has a whole diferent meaning to the Russians, I'd prefer to not do a diagram and yes you're right.

ippy

[Bubbles]

Len, so I've heard, a black hole has a whole diferent meaning to the Russians, I'd prefer to not do a diagram and yes you're right.

ippy

Funnily enough science programmes did exist in the 60's so did Patrick Moore.

 

[Enki]

And I hope that when you look in a mirror your eyes will be opened to experience the wonder and awe at the unimaginable creative powers that brought you into existence from the lifeless raw materials of this earth, and that you will be able to appreciate the miracle that allows you to be aware of your own existence and to control your own destiny.

Natural selection has a random element, but it is not a random process. Genetic variations that actually aid survival and/or reproduction are much more likely to become entrenched within a population than those that actively act against the above. This is basic stuff, Alan, and, furthermore, we have a great deal of evidence to show this is so.

Whether your God had anything to do with this process is open to argument, but as the process has been shown to work with no recourse to any god then I do not see any reason to bring Him into this discussion, unless it's simply a matter of your personal faith based solely upon your assertions, which you are entirely welcome to, but which I do not find at all convincing.

I look around me and have a sense of wonder and awe at the sheer diversity of life on this planet. At no time have I seen this in terms of miracles or a god, and that also includes my own capacity for self awareness and apparent free will which I suggest are products of the complexity of my brain, and both of which I see mirrored in a range of other animal species(albeit at a simpler level).

[wigginhall]

Nice post, Enki.  I was thinking about the growing immunity of bugs to antibiotics, I suppose for AB, this shows the wonderful power of God in creating new forms of life, even if they may condemn us to death.  It's all good.