Searching for GOD...

[Leonard James]

I think the idea of confessing your wrongdoings to a priest is CRAZY! Many catholic priests are not saints by any means, some of them are perverted scum!

True, but it's easier than making amends for your wrongdoings yourself! 

[floo]

True, but it's easier than making amends for your wrongdoings yourself! 

That is true, especially as in the past a priest was not permitted to divulge what they had been told even if a person had confessed to murder! I might be wrong, but I think a priest is nowadays obliged to inform the police if someone confesses to a serious crime.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Floo and Leonard,

The idea of confessional this has been swirling around in my few remaining brain cells since Sanes Theory of theory threads, I suppose it is like the old Life of Brian sketch, what have the romans ever did for us, what has religion ever did for us.

I suppose for a non religious type person, the idea of going to a stranger and sharing your deepest thoughts might seem odd but I think the old adage of, a problem shared is a problem halved is good advice.

In today's society the idea of going to see your shrink ( why do we say shrink )  psychiatrist, counsellor is big business, in fact Leonard you could jump in here, you are a big fan of evolution, this sharing our deepest thoughts must have some evolutionary advantage.

I also found that from the theory of theory thread that hypnosis ( which is now used in medical science ) has its roots in religion, Hinduism, same with meditation, which today comes in many flavours has its roots in religion, meditation has been proven to be very beneficial.

I think the study and practise of religion has quite a lot to tell medical science, and why not, we have been at it for thousands of years

Gonnagle.

[ippy]

fallible and weak human beings arguing the toss about God and yet cannot see their own inability to prove anything in truth to themselves.

I wonder why you think as humans one has any upper hand on the other when it comes to God?

0

ippy

[ippy]

Is it God or was it man when he handed the world and everything to Satan on a plate. Would you want to live for ever in a body which could get sick and suffer but never die?

Do you wrap your children up and stop them going out to play so they won't get run over or hurt? You allow your children to do as they please within certain limits.
Eventually they would grow up and hate you for not allowing them to live their lives as other children.
When it comes to logic the bible is clear that man has been able to decide for himself since day one what his actions will be. You love your child but if he jumps off the top of the slide and hurts himself, is that your fault?

Why is all the bad things Gods fault? Why would God preventing bad things and people from dying help? What you cannot do is put mans own responsibility on God. Adam chose to disobey he brought all the suffering on mankind when he chose to listen to the devil. He handed the world which is marred by Satan, to Satan.

Look at the all the disasters... God did not cause them. Only Satan brings lies, deceit, suffering and death. God does not want this but the number has to be fulfilled that are going to live before he can complete his plan for a new heaven and earth without death or suffering. You need to see that God wants an end a full stop to mankind suffering.

4

ippy

[torridon]

Just going back to this earlier post.
I can't get my head round your insistence that totally free will would define responses as random.

My concept of free will at its most basic is for the ability of the human soul to direct the physical brain to choose between right and wrong.  This ability is at the heart of most religious faith and there is nothing random about it.  It is simply the freedom to make a concious choice which is not pre determined.

At base there is matter and there is energy, and there are natural laws governing how they interact.  There isn't some third sort of stuff, called 'will'; nobody has observed any will falling out of the particle collisions at Cern, neither have they seen fear or pain. The laws that describe nature are either deterministic or they might contain a measure of indeterminacy, in other words, randomness, but there isn't some third stuff, 'will'. Emotions, desires, feelings, intentions, these things are not primal forces, they are consequences of the operation of natural laws at the levels of higher biological complexity. A consequence is not a primary thing, it results from something prior, it is thus part of the great chain of cause and effect.

[Leonard James]

Dear Floo and Leonard,

The idea of confessional this has been swirling around in my few remaining brain cells since Sanes Theory of theory threads, I suppose it is like the old Life of Brian sketch, what have the romans ever did for us, what has religion ever did for us.

I suppose for a non religious type person, the idea of going to a stranger and sharing your deepest thoughts might seem odd but I think the old adage of, a problem shared is a problem halved is good advice.

In today's society the idea of going to see your shrink ( why do we say shrink )  psychiatrist, counsellor is big business, in fact Leonard you could jump in here, you are a big fan of evolution, this sharing our deepest thoughts must have some evolutionary advantage.

I also found that from the theory of theory thread that hypnosis ( which is now used in medical science ) has its roots in religion, Hinduism, same with meditation, which today comes in many flavours has its roots in religion, meditation has been proven to be very beneficial.

I think the study and practise of religion has quite a lot to tell medical science, and why not, we have been at it for thousands of years

Gonnagle.

Hi Gonners,

Sharing your guilt with someone may well make YOU feel better, but in no way does it go towards making amends for it.

Furthermore it only began when humans became able to use language to communicate with one another, so its roots are comparatively recent, evolutionary wise.

I strongly doubt that science can learn anything that is doesn't already know from religion.

[Rhiannon]

Confession isn't just about problem sharing and the relieving of burdens though, is it? The belief is that through confession and absolution the penitent is forgiven - with or without reference to genuine recompense or justice. And it is very open to abuse.

[floo]

Confession isn't just about problem sharing and the relieving of burdens though, is it? The belief is that through confession and absolution the penitent is forgiven - with or without reference to genuine recompense or justice. And it is very open to abuse.

Rob a bank on Friday, go to confession on Saturday and all is forgiven!

[Leonard James]

Confession isn't just about problem sharing and the relieving of burdens though, is it? The belief is that through confession and absolution the penitent is forgiven - with or without reference to genuine recompense or justice. And it is very open to abuse.

Exactly! And that is why it is just a great big sham!

[Alan Burns]

True, but it's easier than making amends for your wrongdoings yourself! 

No it is not Len.
From personal experience I can tell you that confessing my sins to a priest is the most difficult part of my religion - indeed the most difficult part of my life, but in doing so I know that my sins are forgiven through God's wonderful sacrament of reconciliation.  It is well worth the effort to to receive the joy which comes with God's forgiveness.  And as I have said previously, the priest often has an amazing gift of insight to see into the very depth of my soul and give me words of advice as though they came from God Himself.

[Shaker]

No it is not Len.
From personal experience I can tell you that confessing my sins to a priest is the most difficult part of my religion - indeed the most difficult part of my life

Since whatever we do wrong is a wrong done against another, instead of spilling your guts to a total random stranger and going out glowing like the Ready Brek kid thinking you've wiped the slate clean, how about apologising and making amends to those others for once?

but in doing so I know that my sins are forgiven through God's wonderful sacrament of reconciliation.  It is well worth the effort to to receive the joy which comes with God's forgiveness.  And as I have said previously, the priest often has an amazing gift of insight to see into the very depth of my soul and give me words of advice as though they came from God Himself.

The ego of some people knows scarcely any bounds, eh, Alan?

[Alan Burns]

There isn't some third sort of stuff, called 'will'; nobody has observed any will falling out of the particle collisions at Cern,

Just because it can't be defined in particle physics does not mean that it does not exist.  It is a property of human consciousness, which also can't be defined in particle physics.  The evidence for the existence of human free will is as abundant as the evidence for human self awareness.

[Shaker]

The evidence for the existence of human free will is as abundant as the evidence for human self awareness.

So why have you never provided it, then?

[Leonard James]

No it is not Len.
From personal experience I can tell you that confessing my sins to a priest is the most difficult part of my religion - indeed the most difficult part of my life, but in doing so I know that my sins are forgiven through God's wonderful sacrament of reconciliation.  It is well worth the effort to to receive the joy which comes with God's forgiveness.  And as I have said previously, the priest often has an amazing gift of insight to see into the very depth of my soul and give me words of advice as though they came from God Himself.

No matter what you say Alan, the only people who can forgive you are those you have sinned against. Go to them, confess to them, and leave it to them as to whether they forgive you or not.

Confessing to somebody else to get forgiveness is the coward's way out.

[Alan Burns]

Confession isn't just about problem sharing and the relieving of burdens though, is it? The belief is that through confession and absolution the penitent is forgiven - with or without reference to genuine recompense or justice. And it is very open to abuse.

Genuine recompense still has to be made to obtain God's forgiveness.  Confessions can't be used as an easy cop-out.

[Shaker]

Genuine recompense still has to be made to obtain God's forgiveness.  Confessions can't be used as an easy cop-out.

And yet, and yet, that's precisely and exactly what they look like.

[Brownie]

Rob a bank on Friday, go to confession on Saturday and all is forgiven!

It doesn't work like that Floo.  The forgiveness is conditional on the person making a commitment not to commit that sin again.  Of course, we are all human and if we have a particular weakness, it isn't going to be easy.
No-one can commit a sin and say to themselves, "It will be OK because I will be forgiven", that is in itself a sin and a very serious insult to God.

[Shaker]

It doesn't work like that Floo.

For many it seems to work exactly like that. Mafia bosses/underlings and serial murderers amongst them.

The forgiveness is conditional on the person making a commitment not to commit that sin again.  Of course, we are all human and if we have a particular weakness, it isn't going to be easy.

The loopholes, exceptions and get-out clauses make Floo seem righter than ever.

No-one can commit a sin and say to themselves, "It will be OK because I will be forgiven", that is in itself a sin and a very serious insult to God.

He'll cope. He's had far, far worse - the Holocaust; Yugoslavia; Rwanda - and done sweet fuck all about it, so I wouldn't fret.

[Alan Burns]

For many it seems to work exactly like that. Mafia bosses/underlings and serial murderers amongst them.The loopholes, exceptions and get-out clauses make Floo seem righter than ever.He'll cope. He's had far, far worse - the Holocaust; Yugoslavia; Rwanda - and done sweet fuck all about it, so I wouldn't fret.

Sorry Shakes, but you are way out of your league in what you are trying to imply here.  God's forgiveness is conditional upon genuine sorrow, recompense where possible and a commitment to mend your ways.  The act of confession is an added extra to help the person achieve these conditions - not a substitute.

[Shaker]

Sorry Shakes, but you are way out of your league in what you are trying to imply here.

There isn't a "league" to be "in."

What is it that I'm trying to imply, according to you?

God's forgiveness is conditional upon genuine sorrow, recompense where possible and a commitment to mend your ways.  The act of confession is an added extra to help the person achieve these conditions - not a substitute.

I suppose it's a futile endeavour to ask for evidence of this amount of hand-waving and empty hot air. It always is with you.

[torridon]

Just because it can't be defined in particle physics does not mean that it does not exist.  It is a property of human consciousness, which also can't be defined in particle physics.  The evidence for the existence of human free will is as abundant as the evidence for human self awareness.

If I was talking to the man on the Clapham omnibus, I'd probably go along with your sentiment.  It's part of everyone's natural experience of human life, we observe that most other animals make choices driven by instincts, whereas we humans by contrast can step back and think things through and take a different course of action, overiding our instincts.  It's perfectly reasonable to observe and value that essential human difference. 

It's if you want to scratch the surface of how things seem to us, to learn about the raw underlying reality from which our everyday world is fashioned, that we find that things are not really as they seem on the surface.

I remember my younger boy coming home from school one day relating excitedly how his physics teacher had said that if you take two apples out of the fruit basket it is impossible to get them to touch.  'What a bleedin' idiot', the man on the omnibus might retort, of course you can get them to touch.

The point I am making is that there is more than one level of analysis to many phenomena; what might seem true beyond all reasonable doubt upon casual inspection, often yields an entirely contrary analysis upon deeper and more rigorous inspection.  Things are not always as they seem, and the case of free-will is a good example of that.  What seems free, cannot actually be free, really.

[Leonard James]

It doesn't work like that Floo.  The forgiveness is conditional on the person making a commitment not to commit that sin again.  Of course, we are all human and if we have a particular weakness, it isn't going to be easy.
No-one can commit a sin and say to themselves, "It will be OK because I will be forgiven", that is in itself a sin and a very serious insult to God.

And what about the people you have sinned against? They don't appear to matter to you. Surely the honest thing to do is go THEM and ask forgiveness ... never mind asking "God" just to get his forgiveness.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And what about the people you have sinned against? They don't appear to matter to you. Surely the honest thing to do is go THEM and ask forgiveness ... never mind asking "God" just to get his forgiveness.

But why does the sinning against others keep happening. It must be a symptom of something deeper and more sinister.

Now I believe you are one of those who say there is no such thing as sin in which case those supposedly sinned against are making it up........bloody sinners that they are.

[Shaker]

But why does the sinning against others keep happening. It must be a symptom of something deeper and more sinister.

Sinister? What a peculiar choice of word.

Now I believe you are one of those who say there is no such thing as sin in which case those supposedly sinned against are making it up........bloody sinners that they are.

You're omitting - deliberately, I have to assume, as the point is so obvious - the difference between sin and wrongdoing between people, or between people and animals, or even between people and inanimate objects. Sin is a religious, in fact specifically theistic term; remove the god and sin disappears along with it, but wrongdoing remains.