Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3904422 times)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6450 on: December 18, 2015, 08:58:49 PM »
Not so, Alan. Neither you nor anybody else can believe something which their reason tells them isn't true.
But my reason tells me in overwhelming terms that it is true.  There is nothing in science or human philosophy which can contradict the truth that we are created by God who loves us and wants every one of His creation to enjoy everlasting happiness with Him in heaven.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6451 on: December 18, 2015, 09:04:42 PM »
But my reason tells me in overwhelming terms that it is true.  There is nothing in science or human philosophy which can contradict the truth that we are created by God who loves us and wants every one of His creation to enjoy everlasting happiness with Him in heaven.
That isn't a truth. It's your belief. They're not synonymous.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6452 on: December 18, 2015, 09:07:54 PM »
That isn't a truth. It's your belief. They're not synonymous.
You can say it is my belief, but every element in my being tells me it is true.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6453 on: December 18, 2015, 09:22:46 PM »
You can say it is my belief, but every element in my being tells me it is true.
I'm sure it does. And it's still just a belief.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6454 on: December 18, 2015, 11:46:24 PM »
You can say it is my belief, but every element in my being tells me it is true.

I felt like that once. If loss of faith can happen to me, it can happen to anyone, Alan.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6455 on: December 19, 2015, 01:38:37 AM »
I felt like that once. If loss of faith can happen to me, it can happen to anyone, Alan.
I've pointed this out to Alan in the past. Of course, he doesn't accept it, given his penchant for speaking in such absolutist and dogmatic terms as he always does (i.e. "I absolutely know," "Nothing could ever change my mind on this," claiming to know rather than to believe, such-and-such a thing is impossible, etc.)*.

The saddening thing is that it's always the people who are this heavily invested in their worldview who go utterly to pieces when it falls apart, as sometimes happens. It's a bit like the boxing adage of "The bigger they come, the harder they fall." The more utterly and flatly dogmatic someone is about their adopted worldview, as Alan is about his, the greater the devastation when it evaporates. More fluid-minded people who sit looser to their attachments - it could be a political ideology as well as a religious one - feel pain and anxiety and upset, certainly, but weather the storm, roll with the punches and come through, many feeling better for it afterwards. I know this is true of you, Rhi, as you've said as much more than once in the past. (My own entirely subjective opinion based on accounts of people to whom it has happened is that a great many of them are better human beings for it, too, not only in having cast off some ugly and obnoxious views in some cases but in being more flexible, fluid thinkers, larger of mind and sensitive to suffering). It's those one-true-wayers for whom their ideology is absolutely everything in their life, those who can't admit any possibility of error or alteration, people who don't or maybe can't do subtlety and nuance and fine degrees of difference - rigid thinkers or rather, I should say, believers whose beliefs are as fixed and as limited and limiting as train tracks - who tend go to pieces when it does. When you put all your ideological eggs in just the one basket, if those eggs end up smashed you're screwed, emotionally, and that's a whole lot of mess to clean up.

There are reasons why some people are this way - some people are temperamentally more uncomfortable with change, uncertainty and nuance than others, and retreat into dogmatic and absolutist ideologies (sometimes one after another after another) because they appear to offer a (quite illusory) bulwark of changelessness, black and white certainty and either/or clarity in a world built upon constant change, ambiguity, nuance and murky greys. Certain personality types seem naturally to gravitate to religions and political beliefs (sometimes a combination of the two) who purport to have all the answers to all the questions ready-made and laid out for the taking. It's always quicker and easier to buy a suit off the peg than it is to start cutting cloth and making your own. A microwave meal for one or a trip to Burger King is faster and simpler than cooking a complex meal from scratch. But however understandable that may be, we need to remember that that desire is a failing and a fault, not an admirable trait or a positive virtue to be applauded, and however superficially engaging such people may sometimes be, they are in essence extremists who are a hair's breadth away all the time from fanaticism. What's often known as junk food is so popular because it's big on all the things - fat; salt; sugar - that give us an immediate pleasurable pay-off but are ultimately bad for us; rigid, absolutist dogmas are the junk food of the mind. It's quite possible to have the occasional burger or pizza as a treat, enjoy it and to live well and healthily, but there seems to be far less of a brake on people who feel that they're in possession of the ultimate truth of the universe and that the search is now over. The universe is full of mysteries but this isn't one of them; we don't need to guess - we know exactly what the world is like when people who are long on absolute, unwavering, unshakeable certainty and short on cautious critical scepticism get their way.

* "I do know with absolute certainty that we would not exist without God," "I am certain that [extraterrestrial life] will only exist if God wants it to exist," "I have no need to explore other religions and belief systems because I have found God" and so forth.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 03:08:25 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6456 on: December 19, 2015, 05:37:56 AM »
But my reason tells me in overwhelming terms that it is true.  There is nothing in science or human philosophy which can contradict the truth that we are created by God who loves us and wants every one of His creation to enjoy everlasting happiness with Him in heaven.

Shaker has said everything needed to answer you, Alan, so I won't labour the point.

As I have said before, as long as your (and other people's) belief doesn't lead you to harm anybody, it is better to leave you with it.

Sadly, such 'certainty' can lead many people to acts of terror and hate against their innocent neighbours. THAT is what me must all prioritose and fight against.

SusanDoris

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6457 on: December 19, 2015, 06:23:18 AM »
Shaker #6730

Well said, but of course Alan, if he reads it, will have the automatic filter in the brain switched on.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6458 on: December 19, 2015, 07:39:10 AM »
Shaker #6730

Some interesting perspectives in there Shakes, nice post

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6459 on: December 19, 2015, 07:41:42 AM »
Shaker #6730

Well said, but of course Alan, if he reads it, will have the automatic filter in the brain switched on.

Alan's brain switched on? Without his self inflicted  auto pilot?

ippy

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6460 on: December 19, 2015, 07:45:48 AM »
#6730

Great post, Shaker.

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6461 on: December 19, 2015, 07:46:32 AM »
But my reason tells me in overwhelming terms that it is true.  There is nothing in science or human philosophy which can contradict the truth that we are created by God who loves us and wants every one of His creation to enjoy everlasting happiness with Him in heaven.

We don't need science or philosophy to contradict your claims, they do quite a good enough of that job of their on their own. For instance, a god that 'wants every one of his creation to come to him' would not create and tolerate a Devil to lead us away from him. It's not rocket science you know.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 07:59:14 AM by torridon »

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6462 on: December 19, 2015, 08:00:24 AM »
We don't need science or philosophy to contradict your claims, they do a good enough job of their on their own. For instance, a god that 'wants every one of his creation to come to him' would not create and tolerate a Devil to lead us away from him.

Mind you torri, god does work in mysterious ways?

ippy

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6463 on: December 19, 2015, 08:21:29 AM »
Ah, yes, that old cucumber.  Silly me for forgetting  :o

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6464 on: December 19, 2015, 08:45:30 AM »
One of the hardest things to live with IME is lying to oneself. I really don't know how anyone with religious belief never reaches the point at which being ok with 'God moves in mysterious ways' or 'God has a perfect plan' becomes a lie.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6465 on: December 19, 2015, 10:41:59 AM »
One of the hardest things to live with IME is lying to oneself. I really don't know how anyone with religious belief never reaches the point at which being ok with 'God moves in mysterious ways' or 'God has a perfect plan' becomes a lie.

Sadly, both answers a valid for them ... they accept them as sufficient.  :(

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6466 on: December 19, 2015, 11:05:34 AM »
I felt like that once. If loss of faith can happen to me, it can happen to anyone, Alan.
(I know Shaker will not like this but here I go again ...)

I can't cease to believe in someone with whom I have a personal relationship.  And I am fully aware of people who have lost their faith, but none of their experiences can cause me to doubt God's existence.  My faith is a gift from God - the most precious gift that anyone could have.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6467 on: December 19, 2015, 11:08:08 AM »
Dear Shaker,

Excellent post ( 6730 )

It reminds me of two things, this excellent quote from Kahlil Gibran,

Quote
“Say not, 'I have found the truth,' but rather, 'I have found a truth.' Say not, ' I have found the path of the soul.' Say rather, 'I have met the soul walking upon my path.' For the soul walks upon all paths. The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed. The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.”

And as has been suggested on another thread, the Torment Mother Teresa went through at the end of her life.

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6468 on: December 19, 2015, 11:14:09 AM »
Quote
Quote from: Rhiannon on Today at 08:45:30 AM

    One of the hardest things to live with IME is lying to oneself. I really don't know how anyone with religious belief never reaches the point at which being ok with 'God moves in mysterious ways' or 'God has a perfect plan' becomes a lie.

Sadly, both answers a valid for them ... they accept them as sufficient.  :(

There are many things I do not understand, but to counter these there is overwhelming evidence of God's love.  We are not in heaven yet.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6469 on: December 19, 2015, 11:14:35 AM »
I can't cease to believe in someone with whom I have a personal relationship.

You don't. You have a personal relationship with people - real, live, flesh and blood people, not your version of something or other confined entirely to your cranium.

Quote
And I am fully aware of people who have lost their faith, but none of their experiences can cause me to doubt God's existence.
I bet they all said that. 
Quote
My faith is a gift from God
Circular reasoning.
Quote
the most precious gift that anyone could have.
Such an impoverished outlook, not to mention what a slur against real people.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6470 on: December 19, 2015, 11:19:07 AM »
Dear Alan,

Probably going to be in trouble for this one, but when I read a Rhiannon post I don't see a losing faith, I see a moving faith. ( moving as in changing not moving as in, oh that's lovely )

Gonnagle.
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/shop/shop-search.htm

http://www.twam.uk/donate-tools

Go on make a difference, have a rummage in your attic or garage.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6471 on: December 19, 2015, 11:29:30 AM »
Dear Alan,

Probably going to be in trouble for this one, but when I read a Rhiannon post I don't see a losing faith, I see a moving faith. ( moving as in changing not moving as in, oh that's lovely )

Gonnagle.
I agree.
Everyone's journey in life is unique to them, and I am as guilty as anyone in expecting others to follow the same path as me.

I just hope and pray that we all end up in our true home.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6472 on: December 19, 2015, 11:29:48 AM »
Shaker has said everything needed to answer you, Alan, so I won't labour the point.

As I have said before, as long as your (and other people's) belief doesn't lead you to harm anybody, it is better to leave you with it.

Sadly, such 'certainty' can lead many people to acts of terror and hate against their innocent neighbours. THAT is what me must all prioritose and fight against.

I,m trying to think of any parallel sentiments I could express being someone who went from secular humanism where God belief was an eccentricity.....no one called for its extermination in those days.

From my point of view my spiritual journey starts with overwhelming consent.in the idea and experience of passing from dark to light.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6473 on: December 19, 2015, 11:32:04 AM »
Such an impoverished outlook, not to mention what a slur against real people.
You will not understand this, but God is real, more real than anyone else I know.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #6474 on: December 19, 2015, 11:33:04 AM »
You will not understand this, but God is real, more real than anyone else I know.
Then I can only say that you live in some sort of fantasy world of your own creation.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.