Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

Saying something in a suitably portentous tone doesn't make it true. Nor does it answer my question.

Ooooh! That one landed 

[Alan Burns]

We cannot investigate something that isn't there. What we can do, and what we are doing, is investigating what is there, and trying to understand it.  That is a more honest and open minded approach

But the human soul does exist.  The evidence is overwhelming in that it gives every human being conscious awareness and control.  The fact that our senses and man made machines can't directly detect it does not mean that it does not exist.  All science can detect is neuron activity which corresponds to conscious awareness and decision making.  It is just a presumtion to say that this is all that is needed to generate awareness, because the truth is that we have no idea how awareness manifests itself.  To describe it as an emergent property does not define how it works - this is just an expression with no definition behind it.

And the fact that our awareness can't be defined by material properties implies that it will still exist when the physical body dies.

[Alan Burns]

Saying something in a suitably portentous tone doesn't make it true. Nor does it answer my question.

This sounds like a line from "Pride and Prejudice" 
All I am implying is that God has a greater awareness of the power of evil than us, and I trust Him in knowing how to deal with it.

[Shaker]

But the human soul does exist.

Assertion no. 1

The evidence is overwhelming in that it gives every human being conscious awareness and control.

What "evidence" are you referring to?

The fact that our senses and man made machines can't directly detect it does not mean that it does not exist.

Correct ... but nor does it mean, to quote Dara O'Briain, that you can plug the gaps with whatever fairy tale that most appeals to you.

All science can detect is neuron activity which corresponds to conscious awareness and decision making.  It is just a presumtion to say that this is all that is needed to generate awareness, because the truth is that we have no idea how awareness manifests itself.

See previous response.

And the fact that our awareness can't be defined by material properties implies that it will still exist when the physical body dies.

No, it does absolutely nothing of the kind.

It does however indicate just how barrel-scrapingly desperate you are to crowbar your souls and devils and all the rest of the Burns legendarium into any current gap in knowledge.

[Shaker]

This sounds like a line from "Pride and Prejudice" 
All I am implying is that God has a greater awareness of the power of evil than us, and I trust Him in knowing how to deal with it.

If you think (just to concentrate on a few items from the 20th century alone, otherwise the list would be unmanageable) Passchendaele, the Holodomor (look it up if necessary), the Second World War including special guest star the Holocaust, Balkan ethnic cleansing nee Yugoslavia and Rwanda are examples of your god "dealing with" evil then I personally wouldn't have him running a whelk stall.

[Rhiannon]

This sounds like a line from "Pride and Prejudice" 
All I am implying is that God has a greater awareness of the power of evil than us, and I trust Him in knowing how to deal with it.

That still doesn't explain why you think 'Jesus opening the way to heaven' is logical or compassionate. I assume you are putting your trust in a God that you believe behaves in a logical and compassionate manner.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

If you think (just to concentrate on a few items from the 20th century alone, otherwise the list would be unmanageable) Passchendaele, the Holodomor (look it up if necessary), the Second World War including special guest star the Holocaust, Balkan ethnic cleansing nee Yugoslavia and Rwanda are examples of your god "dealing with" evil then I personally wouldn't have him running a whelk stall.

But as Rhiannon will tell you those instances you quote weren't evil occasions just people being very silly........

[Shaker]

But as Rhiannon will tell you those instances you quote weren't evil occasions just people being very silly........

So what do you take evil to be then?

[ippy]

That still doesn't explain why you think 'Jesus opening the way to heaven' is logical or compassionate. I assume you are putting your trust in a God that you believe behaves in a logical and compassionate manner.

I really don't think that this bloke does a lot of thinking, from his point of view there's no need, godidit is all he needs to know, this applies to all, he's on rails, wearing blinkers, there's no reasoning with the man, I'm as guilty as the rest of you trying to reason with the bloke, let him get on with it he's exactly as per R D's book title describes, I think he's potty, harmless, unless we let people like him get anywhere near our very young children.   

ippy

[torridon]

But the human soul does exist.  The evidence is overwhelming in that it gives every human being conscious awareness and control.  The fact that our senses and man made machines can't directly detect it does not mean that it does not exist.  All science can detect is neuron activity which corresponds to conscious awareness and decision making.  It is just a presumtion to say that this is all that is needed to generate awareness, because the truth is that we have no idea how awareness manifests itself.  To describe it as an emergent property does not define how it works - this is just an expression with no definition behind it.

And the fact that our awareness can't be defined by material properties implies that it will still exist when the physical body dies.

There is no evidence for a 'soul' in the sense that you use it; ie something ontologically distinct from our body but inhabiting it. If we use 'soul' to mean our sense of self that is OK, but your concept goes far beyond that and since there is no evidence for it there is no reason to consider it anything other than make-believe. That is what it means to be evidence-led, we work with what there is, and try to understand that, minimising our risk of being wrong that comes from indulging speculative unevidenced notions. It would also eliminate the muddles you get into from claiming that other animals do not have 'souls' despite being consciously aware; all this shows is that your loyalty to your belief system is stronger than your loyalty to truth.

[Shaker]

your loyalty to your belief system is stronger than your loyalty to truth.

Beautifully expressed.

[Alan Burns]

That still doesn't explain why you think 'Jesus opening the way to heaven' is logical or compassionate. I assume you are putting your trust in a God that you believe behaves in a logical and compassionate manner.

I believe in love and compassion, which stems directly from my Christian faith.

[BeRational]

I believe in love and compassion, which stems directly from my Christian faith.

I believe in love and compassion and have no Christian faith.

[Alan Burns]

There is no evidence for a 'soul' in the sense that you use it; ie something ontologically distinct from our body but inhabiting it. If we use 'soul' to mean our sense of self that is OK, but your concept goes far beyond that and since there is no evidence for it there is no reason to consider it anything other than make-believe. That is what it means to be evidence-led, we work with what there is, and try to understand that, minimising our risk of being wrong that comes from indulging speculative unevidenced notions. It would also eliminate the muddles you get into from claiming that other animals do not have 'souls' despite being consciously aware; all this shows is that your loyalty to your belief system is stronger than your loyalty to truth.

My faith in God certainly aroused my curiosity into how God works in our lives, and how we were brought into existence.  My curiosity quickly revealed two truths which can't be explained in material terms - the existence of self awareness and free will in a deterministic universe.  My curiosity also helped me to see the unlikely probability that all the events needed to bring life into existence could be generated by unguided forces.  So my curiosity strengthened my faith.

I must contradict Shaker's analogy of me shoe-horning my belief system into small gaps of scientific knowledge.  To me it sits comfortably alongside current scientific theory with no conflicts.

[SusanDoris]

Alan Burns

I read and post on Ship of Fools and I think that even some of the more devout believers there would be hard pushed to agree with some of the stuff you post.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I believe in love and compassion and have no Christian faith.

Maybe that's why Britain, an increasingly secular humanist country is becoming more compassionate towards the sick and disabled, less of an economic divide between North and South and there is more economic equality between those at the top and everyone else with voting boundaries that will give everyone's vote equal weighting.

[BeRational]

Maybe that's why Britain, an increasingly secular humanist country is becoming more compassionate towards the sick and disabled, less of an economic divide between North and South and there is more economic equality between those at the top and everyone else with voting boundaries that will give everyone's vote equal weighting.

Perhaps you are confusing me with a Stalinist?

[Alan Burns]

I believe in love and compassion and have no Christian faith.

But without the gifts of self awareness and free will the concepts of love and compassion would not exist - we would just be biological robots reacting to events according to the deterministic laws of science with no real freedom of thought or action.

[floo]

My faith in God certainly aroused my curiosity into how God works in our lives, and how we were brought into existence.  My curiosity quickly revealed two truths which can't be explained in material terms - the existence of self awareness and free will in a deterministic universe. My curiosity also helped me to see the unlikely probability that all the events needed to bring life into existence could be generated by unguided forces.  So my curiosity strengthened my faith.

I must contradict Shaker's analogy of me shoe-horning my belief system into small gaps of scientific knowledge.  To me it sits comfortably alongside current scientific theory with no conflicts.

Sez you, but I am sure they be explained scientifically.

[ippy]

I believe in love and compassion and have no Christian faith.

Ditto.

ippy

[Shaker]

I believe in love and compassion and have no Christian faith.

Same here.

[ippy]

But without the gifts of self awareness and free will the concepts of love and compassion would not exist - we would just be biological robots reacting to events according to the deterministic laws of science with no real freedom of thought or action.

All you do is keep repeating the things you "BELIEVE", but don't know for certain, nobody does including you.

ippy

[Alan Burns]

All you do is keep repeating the things you "BELIEVE", but don't know for certain, nobody does including you.

ippy

But I would not be able to believe in anything without the awareness and free will of my soul.

[Alan Burns]

So you say, but it doesn't mean your awareness has anything to do with any deity!

I am quite certain that my gift of awareness could not be generated by the physical process of evolution driven by natural selection.  So I conclude that my awareness, together with my conscious free will, are gifts from our Creator.

[BeRational]

But without the gifts of self awareness and free will the concepts of love and compassion would not exist - we would just be biological robots reacting to events according to the deterministic laws of science with no real freedom of thought or action.

That's just delusional assertion.

Based on nothing so it can be ignored.