Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

I doubt whether there is a way of resolving the differences and the arguments will just go on and on, mainly because they are pointing in different directions. 

The 'materialist' argument is from directing consciousness outwards at the objective matter energy universe he forms mental concepts/theories/models based upon it and  suggests that consciousness has emerged from it.  The individual develops a sense of separateness from those mental constructions which he gradually becomes attached to and it generally crystallises into an ego/self.  All mental constructions are illusions in the sense that they are only vague imaginary approximations of what is observed.

The 'spiritualist' directs his consciousness inwards and comes across other imagery which may be gathered from a social environment or self created from resolved or unresolved conflicts.  These are also illusions in the sense they do not exist beyond the individual and cannot be demonstrated in a 'materialist' form.

The argument continues between two strongly held types of illusion.

The 'wise' take a different path.

What path do the 'wise' take ?

[ippy]

What path do the 'wise' take ?

Really good question, I'll  second that, come on ekim? What path do the 'wise' take ?

ippy

[ekim]

What path do the 'wise' take ?

A path or way (which some say is not really a path) which leads to inner stillness rather than to inner mental chatter, thoughts, concepts, emotions etc.

[Alan Burns]

Are they choices that are free or are they driven by whichever programme is the stronger between natural inclination and religious indoctrination?

A conscious free will choice is driven by whatever drives my imagination.  I do not feel that my imagination is defined by either natural inclinations or religious teaching.  My imagination is free to explore beyond these boundaries, and I am free to turn my imagination into whatever form of action is feasible.

[Rhiannon]

A path or way (which some say is not really a path) which leads to inner stillness rather than to inner mental chatter, thoughts, concepts, emotions etc.

The Tao that can be told is not the Tao?

[torridon]

A path or way (which some say is not really a path) which leads to inner stillness rather than to inner mental chatter, thoughts, concepts, emotions etc.

I don't see how that is a path to resolving the dispute between spiritualist and materialist approaches to explaining our existence. Inner stillness would be a state of mind; resolving dispute requires active engagement with the ideas, surely, it requires hard work.

[torridon]

A conscious free will choice is driven by whatever drives my imagination.  I do not feel that my imagination is defined by either natural inclinations or religious teaching.  My imagination is free to explore beyond these boundaries, and I am free to turn my imagination into whatever form of action is feasible.

Imagination is bounded by what we have already experienced.   We could not in fairness expect a blind man to imagine what redness is like.

[ekim]

A conscious free will choice is driven by whatever drives my imagination.  I do not feel that my imagination is defined by either natural inclinations or religious teaching.  My imagination is free to explore beyond these boundaries, and I am free to turn my imagination into whatever form of action is feasible.

If your 'choice' is driven it then does not appear to be free.
What imagery do you think your mind creates?  In your postings they resemble Christian rather than Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist.  We only have to look at science fiction movies or the ravings of some mentally unstable characters to see how wide ranging imagination can be, but that does not mean that they express the truth.

[ekim]

The Tao that can be told is not the Tao?

Yes, that's the problem with absolutes.  You don't seem to be able to form a meaningful concept of them and yet if you want to introduce them into conversation, a word is needed .... probably why Buddha is said to have maintained a noble silence when asked about God.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Torridon,

We could not in fairness expect a blind man to imagine what redness is like.

It's the imagination we are talking about, something that we know scant little about, redness to a blind man could be anything, I mean, anything!!

I can imagine me standing at the edge of the universe, I have never been there or seen it but I can imagine it, one foot resting on nothing the other standing on a comet.

Imagination, God given or just the way we have evolved

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Imagination, God given or just the way we have evolved

Gonnagle.

Both ... if by "God" you mean the cause of what is. But don't be foolish enough to attempt to describe it.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

Both ... if by "God" you mean the cause of what is. But don't be foolish enough to attempt to describe it.

Deep old son, very deep, Deepity

Reminds me of,

When Earth's last picture is painted
And the tubes are twisted and dried
When the oldest colors have faded
And the youngest critic has died
We shall rest, and faith, we shall need it
Lie down for an aeon or two
'Till the Master of all good workmen
Shall put us to work anew
And those that were good shall be happy
They'll sit in a golden chair
They'll splash at a ten league canvas
With brushes of comet's hair
They'll find real saints to draw from
Magdalene, Peter, and Paul
They'll work for an age at a sitting
And never be tired at all.
And only the Master shall praise us.
And only the Master shall blame.
And no one will work for the money.
No one will work for the fame.
But each for the joy of the working,
And each, in his separate star,
Will draw the thing as he sees it.
For the God of things as they are!

Rudyard Kipling

[ekim]

I don't see how that is a path to resolving the dispute between spiritualist and materialist approaches to explaining our existence. Inner stillness would be a state of mind; resolving dispute requires active engagement with the ideas, surely, it requires hard work.

It sees resolutions, disputes and explanations as mental processes which probably lead to more disputes, explanations and resolutions and as you say active engagement requires hard work.  The state of the world today shows how hard it is and how bitterly it can be fought.  It sometimes ends in a compromise and a so called peaceful settlement until the next time.  The way (let's call it) of inner stillness promotes a centre of inner peace beyond the mental chattering, and a state of ease within the body as opposed to disease.  This 'way' sometimes also appears as a struggle (an inner jihad) and I suppose many are called, few make it.

[Sriram]

I don't see how that is a path to resolving the dispute between spiritualist and materialist approaches to explaining our existence. Inner stillness would be a state of mind; resolving dispute requires active engagement with the ideas, surely, it requires hard work.

We cannot resolve differences because the minds of most people see only differences. With the same God we have three religions (and several denominations) fighting with one another! How can we resolve differences through words?!

When most people develop an integrative mind...they'll automatically see the similarities.

[Enki]

Dear Torridon,

It's the imagination we are talking about, something that we know scant little about, redness to a blind man could be anything, I mean, anything!!

I can imagine me standing at the edge of the universe, I have never been there or seen it but I can imagine it, one foot resting on nothing the other standing on a comet.

Imagination, God given or just the way we have evolved

Gonnagle.

Strange that, but I can't imagine 'nothing'.

[Alan Burns]

If your 'choice' is driven it then does not appear to be free.
What imagery do you think your mind creates?  In your postings they resemble Christian rather than Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist.  We only have to look at science fiction movies or the ravings of some mentally unstable characters to see how wide ranging imagination can be, but that does not mean that they express the truth.

Of course human imagination is not a route to the truth.  I quoted imagination as an example of the human soul's capability of interacting with our physical brain.  To discover the truth we need to look beyond our fickle human imagination to find the  true source of wisdom.

[Sriram]

Both ... if by "God" you mean the cause of what is. But don't be foolish enough to attempt to describe it.

But why not?!  Words, ideas, concepts, imagery....are the ways by which we humans grow and develop. The real Truth may be beyond description...but without description we will never be able to approach or climb towards it.

Like a ladder is necessary to go up....but needs to be abandoned finally.

[Alan Burns]

But why not?!  Words, ideas, concepts, imagery....are the ways by which we humans grow and develop. The real Truth may be beyond description...but without description we will never be able to approach or climb towards it.

Like a ladder is necessary to go up....but needs to be abandoned finally.

If you ask ten philosophers to define the truth, you will get ten different answers, but there is only one truth, and mankind's intellect alone is not capable of finding it.

I think the psalmists were much closer to the truth than modern day philosophers.

In his riches, man lacks wisdom (Psalm 49)


Indeed you love truth in the heart; then in the secret of my heart teach me wisdom. (Psalm 51)

[Sriram]

If you ask ten philosophers to define the truth, you will get ten different answers, but there is only one truth, and mankind's intellect alone is not capable of finding it.

I think the psalmists were much closer to the truth than modern day philosophers.

In his riches, man lacks wisdom (Psalm 49)


Indeed you love truth in the heart; then in the secret of my heart teach me wisdom. (Psalm 51)

Absolutely! I agree that man's intellect cannot comprehend the Truth. It is however the way to climb towards the Truth. 

The intellect and imagination are there for a purpose. They should not be condemned. They lead us from falsehood to Truth through a route of imagery and myth. Ultimately individually we  have to abandon them.....but that is only when the Truth is reached. Till then they serve a purpose.

That is why it is wrong to keep putting down other paths and to think that only our path is correct.  Different ladders of whatever colour or material, all lead to the same goal.  That realization is vital to enable us to grow.

[torridon]

Of course human imagination is not a route to the truth.  I quoted imagination as an example of the human soul's capability of interacting with our physical brain.  To discover the truth we need to look beyond our fickle human imagination to find the  true source of wisdom.

I doubt there is any single 'true source of wisdom', that smacks of onetruewayism. What we do have is a (possibly near-infinite) range of perspectives.  It took a scientist (Einstein), to show us that there are no absolutes in the real world, only relative perspectives.

[ippy]

Bit of romance inside the head this soul idea, try the following:

The concept of “God” invented as the antithesis of life---everything harmful, poisonous and slanderous, the whole-hostility unto death against life synthesized in a gruesome unity!

The concept of the “beyond”, the “true world” invented in order to devaluate the only world there is---in order to retain no goal, no reason, no task for our Earthly reality!

The concept of “the soul”, “the spirit”, finally even “immortal soul”, invented in order to despise the body, to make it sick --- “holy”; to oppose with a ghastly levity everything that deserves to be taken seriously in life, the questions of nourishment, the abode, spiritual diet, treatment of the sick, cleanliness and weather!

In place of health, “the salvation of the soul”---that is, a folie circularie between penitential convulsions and hysteria about redemption!

The concept of “sin” invented along with the torture instrument that belongs with it, the concept of “free will”, in order to confuse the instincts, to make mistrust of the instincts second nature! 

Nietzsche.

No link, it's from a book I'm reading and I'd think Nietzsche's ideas might be a bit more realistic and well thought out than yours truly. 

(The book "In defence of Atheism", Michael Onfray).

ippy

 

   

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

You are reading a book please remember that the forum is here for any long words you may struggle with

In Defence of Atheism, does atheism need defending

Gonnagle.

[Sassy]

My feelings of love and compassion come from my own nature but are directed towards others, and which I would hope are as sincere as any person of any faith. Sometimes the subject of my love and compassion arouses all sorts of contradictory emotions within me and those feelings certainly do not make me feel better, as you suggest, but often make me feel particularly ill at ease.

I guess Enki, you misconstrue what I am saying...

Why do you feel love and compassion? If nature why doesn't everyone feel it?
Hitler... would you say his nature was to have love and compassion?
So tell me why he murdered so many innocent people?  Your feelings of love and compassion are not part of mans nature.
I was referring to the general nature of mankind rather than the singular person.
We may have consciences and those conscience make you feel guilty that causes your compassion- having whilst others have not. But it is not of mans fallen nature to have genuine compassion and love for others.

Even believers do not of their own nature without God have love and compassion in it's true nature.

King James Bible
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

We feel guilt too when we realise the truth about Christ.
The truth is every good work we do is by the grace of God.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I hope it makes it a little clearer to you that as believers we are doing that which God has set for us to do.
That of mans nature no one is generally good or truly loving of themselves. That out of conscience we often produce good works whether believer or unbeliever. But it is because of how or conscience allows us to feel.
It is not because we are good of ourselves. Hitler and many like him, show how man can ignore and lose conscience to their own ends..

I would not presume to question your motives when acting out of love and compassion because I do not know you, and any attempt by you to question mine is similarly rejected by me out of hand. I refuse to group all Christians/believers as somehow selflessly or selfishly motivated and I refuse to group all non Christians/non believers similarly. We are all human beings and one can make personal judgments of this nature only on the basis of knowing a person pretty well.

As, stated many times and this time no different. There is no way without the knowledge of God you can question our love and compassion. For they are simply Gods own love and compassion as I hope the information above explains.
We are only doing that which our new nature in God has been prepared for. What we know is that the works were already prepared for us by God. It is simply us doing the will of God rather than living by our own nature.

[Sassy]

Good post, Enki.

And I guess this is why we should try to refrain from judging Sass for spattering the forum with her spite, as she tends to so often do.

Here Enki, is the perfect example of mans own nature and how it lacks, love, empathy and compassion because it has no knowledge of the truth of God regarding true love and good works... Sometimes it is better to be wronged through jealousy and lack of knowledge as Rhiannon has done toward myself. Than to be the author of such works as Rhiannon has showed herself capable of doing.

Life is not a competition Rhi, and as you have already showed you are too much after yourself to be after doing the will of God.
You can make all types of displays of what the world wants to see you as. But in the end it will come out as this post of yours shows. I personally, hide nothing and I care enough to tell the truth. It is in your court to apologise.

[floo]

Here Enki, is the perfect example of mans own nature and how it lacks, love, empathy and compassion because it has no knowledge of the truth of God regarding true love and good works... Sometimes it is better to be wronged through jealousy and lack of knowledge as Rhiannon has done toward myself. Than to be the author of such works as Rhiannon has showed herself capable of doing.

Life is not a competition Rhi, and as you have already showed you are too much after yourself to be after doing the will of God.
You can make all types of displays of what the world wants to see you as. But in the end it will come out as this post of yours shows. I personally, hide nothing and I care enough to tell the truth. It is in your court to apologise.

You should do a comedy act, it would bring the house down!