Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

I know you have put a lot of faith in the process of evolution, but I can't accept that the human mind could exist without God. 

Could a Neanderthal mind exist without God ? How about a Homo Erectus mind ? how about a chimpanzee ? How about a mouse ? Could an ant's mind exist without god ? 

Your personal incredulity is not evidence, it is merely an abdication of your ability to think things through.

[Alan Burns]

I don't think that is right.  Given what we have learned through neuroscience, cognitive science and evolutionary psychology, we would predict a diversity in personal phenomenology that is consistent with the particular cognitive biases and historical cultural development of our species.

We have certainly discovered a lot about the processes going on within our brains, but the actions of discovering and labelling them does not in itself fully explain them.  As Sriram said, there are many witnesses to human spirituality which point to the fact that we are spiritual beings, not just biological machines.

[Alan Burns]

Your personal incredulity has no bearing on what's demonstrably true.

But there is nothing in science which can demonstrate how a single entity of conscious awareness can emerge from the activity of a collection of atoms and molecules.

[Shaker]

But there is nothing in science which can demonstrate how a single entity of conscious awareness can emerge from the activity of a collection of atoms and melecules.

Indeed.

Which means that something is currently unexplained, not that you have licence to plug the gap with whatever one fairy tale (out of hundreds or possibly even thousands) that happens to appeal to you best.

[torridon]

But there is nothing in science which can demonstrate how a single entity of conscious awareness can emerge from the activity of a collection of atoms and molecules.

Understanding that is a work in progress.  Clearly conscious awareness does emerge from the activity of collections of atoms and molecules because we observe it in every living creature, we just need to fill out our understanding of how it happens.

[torridon]

We have certainly discovered a lot about the processes going on within our brains, but the actions of discovering and labelling them does not in itself fully explain them.  As Sriram said, there are many witnesses to human spirituality which point to the fact that we are spiritual beings, not just biological machines.

Spirituality, whatever it is, arises from within the workings of biological machines.  Each biological machine is unique, thus the diversity in spiritual experience (as in 'all faiths and none') broadly mirrors the diversity inherent in the machines. That's not a coincidence, you know.

[Alan Burns]

Indeed.

Which means that something is currently unexplained, not that you have licence to plug the gap with whatever one fairy tale (out of hundreds or possibly even thousands) that happens to appeal to you best.

You say it is currently unexplained, implying that there will be some means of explaining it in the future.

But have you considered the possibility that conscious awareness is unexplainable in physical terms, and what consequences this could lead to?

[Sriram]

Spirituality, whatever it is, arises from within the workings of biological machines.  Each biological machine is unique, thus the diversity in spiritual experience (as in 'all faiths and none') broadly mirrors the diversity inherent in the machines. That's not a coincidence, you know.

'Spirituality..whatever it is'....you say and then conclude decisively that it is all 'the workings of the biological machines'!!!! 

[Shaker]

You say it is currently unexplained, implying that there will be some means of explaining it in the future.

No, it means currently explained. Whether there will be a comprehensive explanation in future is unknown, and by definition can't be known until and unless such a thing comes along. What we do know is that unexplained means just that, and that you've no reason to patch the hole with Goddunnit.

But have you considered the possibility that conscious awareness is unexplainable in physical terms

Yes.

and what consequences this could lead to?

None whatever that I can see. Unexplained is unexplained, not the cue for anyone to start invoking any old bilge because they're uncomfortable with ignorance.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Torridon,

Spirituality, whatever it is, arises from within the workings of biological machines.  Each biological machine is unique, thus the diversity in spiritual experience (as in 'all faiths and none') mirrors the diversity inherent in the machines. That's not a coincidence, you know.

What's not a coincidence?

Gonnagle.

[torridon]

You say it is currently unexplained, implying that there will be some means of explaining it in the future.

But have you considered the possibility that conscious awareness is unexplainable in physical terms, and what consequences this could lead to?

Clearly it is explainable in physical terms, we know that already, we just are short on detail. Everything is physical, ultimately, the old intuition of the distinction between physical and non-physical is dissolving, we need to move beyond that point to understand mental processes.  How do you imagine placebos work if things like hope and expectation do not have a physiological basis ? 'Non-physical', like 'immaterial' is just a myth born of legacy intuitions.

[torridon]

'Spirituality..whatever it is'....you say and then conclude decisively that it is all 'the workings of the biological machines'!!!! 

People mean different things by spirituality, its one of those ambiguous terms.  But whatever it is, all phenomenology is product of mind, by definition; all part of our extended phenotype.

[torridon]

Dear Torridon,

What's not a coincidence?

Gonnagle.

It's not a coincidence that the diversity of 'spiritual' experience broadly mirrors the diversity inherent in brains. There is a cause and effect going on there. People have different experience because they have unique brains informed by their particular inheritence, upbringing, and ambient culture.  Thus a catholic peasant girl in medieval France has a vision of the Virgin Mary, and not of Shiva etc etc.

[Alan Burns]

Clearly it is explainable in physical terms, we know that already, we just are short on detail.

It is not clear at all.  There is no definition of what conscious awareness comprises of.  All we can detect in scientific terms are lots of discrete chain reactions going on in the neural network which comprises our brain, but that is all they are - physical chain reactions.  There is no concept of how this molecular activity alone can define conscious human perception.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Torridon,

It's not a coincidence that the diversity of 'spiritual' experience broadly mirrors the diversity inherent in brains. There is a cause and effect going on there. People have different experience because they have unique brains informed by their particular inheritence, upbringing, and ambient culture.  Thus a catholic peasant girl in medieval France has a vision of the Virgin Mary, and not of Shiva etc etc.

Thank you, I was hoping that you had some new insight into why we are unique, unique as no two people ( even twins ) are exactly alike.

Gonnagle.

[ippy]

Dear Torridon,

Thank you, I was hoping that you had some new insight into why we are unique, unique as no two people ( even twins ) are exactly alike.

Gonnagle.

With the knowledge we have today where we now know that DNA is the blueprint of all life on planet Earth and therefore anyone that can put two intelligble words together should know why every individual is unique, without having to ask and without having to know every intimate detail of how DNA does its work.

ippy

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

With the knowledge we have today where we now know that DNA is the blueprint of all life on planet Earth and therefore anyone that can put two intelligble words together should know why every individual is unique, without having to ask and without having to know every intimate detail of how DNA does its work.

That's a very confident sentence, just wondering if that is a mark of atheism, a confidence in science

Anyway old son I was just reading a little article about DNA, Phenotypes and Genotypes, it did state something which pulled me up a little, we all share 99.9% of the same DNA.

But I was thinking more about fingerprints, snowflakes, that sort of stuff.

Gonnagle.

[Aruntraveller]

That's a very confident sentence, just wondering if that is a mark of atheism, a confidence in science

I don't think so Gonners - I think it is Ippy's individual view on the matter - but then it is only as confident as the continued assertion by some on here about the one true God - and at least it has the benefit of verified facts to back it up.

[ippy]

Dear ippy,

That's a very confident sentence, just wondering if that is a mark of atheism, a confidence in science

Anyway old son I was just reading a little article about DNA, Phenotypes and Genotypes, it did state something which pulled me up a little, we all share 99.9% of the same DNA.

But I was thinking more about fingerprints, snowflakes, that sort of stuff.

Gonnagle.

Why not be confident in something that's supported by strong evidence?

DNA would apply to finger prints, and the snow flakes, hardly something that I spend time pondering about but I do remember that there is some kind of formula that explains their diversity/uniqueness, it's more than likely explained on wikki somewhere.

Ippy

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy and Trent,

Well probably just me but the bit about,

we now know that DNA is the blueprint of all life on planet Earth

That sounds very confident to me, my first question would be, is it? and then I would be wondering, what's next, what new discovery is just around the corner.

but I do remember that there is some kind of formula that explains their diversity/uniquenes

I will give it a google later, right now shopping time, I hate shopping, maybe I should embrace this internet thingy and do all my shopping online

Gonnagle.

[Sassy]

Dear Blue,

No, Jesus the man is more important to me, when any Christian talks of the miracles I think, what! Jesus needs some kind of a justification for calling himself, Son of God, his simple acts, like washing his disciples feet, like staying the course knowing the horrors that awaited him, his teachings.

If Aristotle's teachings touch you as much as Our Lords teachings touch me then more power to Aristotle's elbow.

I point to Jesus and say, there's God or an earthly equivalent.

Gonnagle.



All very nice and cosy but without the slightest morsel of viable evidence has ever been found to support these mythical, magical, superstitious beliefs, but never mind that, it's so cosy and comfortable arrrrr.
ippy

Evidence is relative to the unlearned mind... It requires a moderate amount of faith to believe anything you are told when you lack the knowledge or capacity to understand what the evidence actually is.

[Leonard James]

Good morning Len,
I know you have put a lot of faith in the process of evolution, but I can't accept that the human mind could exist without God.

And I can't accept that "God" could exist without the human mind. Indeed, it is a product of the human mind, along with all the other 'supernatural' things that we have dreamed up.

So any deception or misleading of the human mind is irrelevant to God's existence.

No, they are the source of God's "existence".

And may I wish you a happy new year 

Heartily reciprocated, my friend.

[Enki]

Dear ippy,

That's a very confident sentence, just wondering if that is a mark of atheism, a confidence in science

Anyway old son I was just reading a little article about DNA, Phenotypes and Genotypes, it did state something which pulled me up a little, we all share 99.9% of the same DNA.

But I was thinking more about fingerprints, snowflakes, that sort of stuff.

Gonnagle.

And we share about 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees and bonobos.

The reason why snowflakes vary from each other is well understood in scientific terms, just as the flocking behaviour of starlings is quite easily explained. This, however, doesn't in any way subtract from the wonder and fascination felt by many people in looking at the structure of snowflakes or the wheeling movements of starling flocks at dusk. Some of us can experience such phenomena without the slightest feeling of invoking a God, others seem to see God as an integral part of it. Such is life!

[Shaker]

The reason why snowflakes vary from each other is well understood in scientific terms, just as the flocking behaviour of starlings is quite easily explained. This, however, doesn't in any way subtract from the wonder and fascination felt by many people in looking at the structure of snowflakes or the wheeling movements of starling flocks at dusk. Some of us can experience such phenomena without the slightest feeling of invoking a God

Hear hear.

[Alan Burns]

I was just reading a little article about DNA, Phenotypes and Genotypes, it did state something which pulled me up a little, we all share 99.9% of the same DNA.

And may I add that I have never met anyone with 99.9% of my personality.  So I wonder how such diverse, unique personalities, even between identical twins, can be explained in purely biological terms