Searching for GOD...

[jeremyp]

Well, your posts are full of dishonesty and abuse of other people.   I'm baffled as to how you might claim that this is a Christian attitude.

He doesn't claim it is a Christian attitude, if his post about Christianity and Christians is correct. He claims the dishonesty and abuse is all down to him.

But then the most abusive people here are Christians - again, that is puzzling, but fortunately, there are some Christians who are not like that.

I think they get frustrated because they can't win a rational debate. So many of them think they ought to be able to "prove" their beliefs because, after all, it is the Truth as far as they are concerned. I think the abusiveness and dishonesty arises out of a kind of cognitive dissonance when they are shown their arguments are not as strong as they thought.

Anyway, for balance, the politest posters here are also Christians. Look at Alan Burns, constantly getting torn to pieces but never loses his rag.

[floo]

Anyway, for balance, the politest posters here are also Christians. Look at Alan Burns, constantly getting then to pieces but never loses his rag.


True, credit where credit is due.

[jeremyp]

I think the evidence shows I am the recipient of the most abuse on this board maybe Nick Marks receives more but that is nothing for his detractors to get smug about given the circumstances.

Do you understand the difference between being shown to be wrong and being abused? You do get quite a lot of abuse as t a reaction to your own dishonesty and abuse, but primarily you get arguments that destroy your position (when it is possible to tell what your position is) and comments showing your posts to be evasive and dishonest.

[Rhiannon]

You don't get to judge who gets to go up or down Floo.............that's all I know.

The sad thing is that you think judgement, up and down actually exist.

[Shaker]

Anyway, for balance, the politest posters here are also Christians. Look at Alan Burns, constantly getting then to pieces but never loses his rag.

To be fair though, that's because he's utterly impervious to reasoned argument, sitting in his own little bubble repeating the same things over and over, never once showing any sign of having taken on board a single thing anyone has said to him.

[Shaker]

The sad thing is that you think judgement, up and down actually exist.

I was going to say, are these spiritual beliefs we're talking about here or a fucking lift?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

How do you know it is?

The inexplicability by any other reason.

[jeremyp]

To be fair though, that's because he's utterly impervious to reasoned argument,

So is Vlad, but Alan doesn't resort to insults.

There's also Wigginhall, and the other Alan when he is around. I think even Hope only insults people by accident.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So is Vlad, but Alan doesn't resort to insults.

There's also Wigginhall, and the other Alan when he is around. I think even Hope only insults people by accident.

What reasonable argument do you think I am impervious to?
I think you have got that wrong. I believe I have never said materialistic arguments are unreasonable.....just wrong.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlunderer,

The inexplicability by any other reason.

There are many such possible reasons; you just find them less thrilling is all so you have no interest in them.

[Alan Burns]

Morning Alan, and Happy New Year to you 

Nobody working in science expects cast iron proofs; such things only exist in conceptual domains such as maths and logic. More generally in science we look to the evidence and try to understand it.  So, if there is some evidence for a creator god, then fine, we have something to go on.

And a very happy New Year to you too   

It seems to me that Science is good at discovering how God works, but not so good at discovering God.  So we need to change our sights and look to the source.

Just off to church ...

[Shaker]

The inexplicability by any other reason.

That's a twofer - personal incredulity and God of the gaps.

[Shaker]

And a very happy New Year to you too   

It seems to me that Science is good at discovering how God works, but not so good at discovering God.  So we need to change our sights and look to the source.

When you get back from church you'd better thrash this one out with Vlad, as he quite regularly asserts that science doesn't do God.

[Enki]

Dear Enki,

You seem fixated on the idea of God, so here is another wonder regarding God.

All electrons are exactly, precisely the same, they do say that God is in the detail or is that the devil

Gonnagle.

Hi Gonners,

A very happy and healthy new year to you.

Well, if I am fixated on the idea of God, as you put it(in a thread, incidentally, entitled 'Searching for God'), then may I refer you to the very first sentence of your post to which I originally replied, when you said:

That's a very confident sentence, just wondering if that is a mark of atheism, a confidence in science.

Also, in your post, to which I am now replying, you bring in God at the beginning when you refer to "another wonder regarding God" and at the end when you say that "they do say that God is in the detail, or is that the devil".

So, I suggest that if anybody is fixated on the God aspect here, it would be rather you than me.

The truth is I couldn't care less about the supposed involvement of any god. I was simply expressing the idea that it is quite possible to experience wonder and fascination of the natural world without bringing in any idea of God at all.

Now to your very interesting and fascinating description of the quantum world of sub atomic particles which actually make up the water molecules and dust which lead to the formation of snowflakes. The chances of two snowflakes being exactly the same is vanishingly small for as they form they are dependent for their individuality on their random movement, the varying temperatures and the amount of moisture that they travel through.

I would like to know the source of your quote however because it purports to deal with the quantum world of atomic and subatomic particles.

One thing(and there are many) that fascinates me as regards quantum mechanics is the relationship of the world of quantum to the macroscopic world of classical physics. Why does quantum coherence(the wave function integral to the quantum world) so easily break down when a molecule is formed, for instance? And how is the robin or photosynthesis actually able to utilise quantum mechanisms with seeming impunity?

You will notice, no doubt, that my interest and fascination with such ideas has everything to do with curiosity, seeking rational explanations, questioning. To bring God into all this, for me, seems a dead end. For me, it is no kind of explanation. I quite accept that for others, they may find that the idea of God is satisfying and helpful, and, as long as personal belief isn't allowed to distort knowledge then fine, in this context I have no quarrel with it.

That is why I genuinely find it puzzling that you think that I am 'fixated' on God at all.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Enki,

A very happy and healthy new year to you.

And the same to you and yours

Fixation on God, well yes, I will readily admit that I am fixated on God, I see God everywhere.

The truth is I couldn't care less about the supposed involvement of any god. I was simply expressing the idea that it is quite possible to experience wonder and fascination of the natural world without bringing in any idea of God at all.

Case in point, that wonder and fascination ( to me ) is God speaking to you, the same can be said for poetry, music, art, the great poets, musicians, artists, expressing their God like talents, and when we are moved by these things, the emotion we feel, good or bad, God again.

You will notice, no doubt, that my interest and fascination with such ideas has everything to do with curiosity, seeking rational explanations, questioning. To bring God into all this, for me, seems a dead end

You don't have to bring God into it, he/she/it is already there.

One thing(and there are many) that fascinates me as regards quantum mechanics is the relationship of the world of quantum to the macroscopic world of classical physics. Why does quantum coherence(the wave function integral to the quantum world) so easily break down when a molecule is formed, for instance? And how is the robin or photosynthesis actually able to utilise quantum mechanisms with seeming impunity?

Ah yes! when that Jim Alkalili bloke was trying to describe photosynthesis at a Quantum level, that blew my mind, I likened it to the sunlight actually having a conversation with the plant, but that's not rational, sunlight can't converse with plants, can it!! well can it!!

Anyway old chap, maybe my remark regarding fixated is wrong for you, but it is certainly correct for me.

Gonnagle.

PS: Sorry, I can't find the link to where I got the quote from, that was yesterday, which is so last year and today is a new year tinged slightly by a mild case of hangover

[Leonard James]

You don't have to bring God into it, he/she/it is already there.

Evidence?

[Alan Burns]

Just a short note about our visit to church.

Today was not an obligation day, so my wife and I only decided at the last minute to attend today's service.  We arrived five minutes late expecting the Mass to have started (our priest is very punctual).  But we were greeted by the priest waiting for us in the porch to tell us that Flora was being received into the church at this service and she wanted my wife to be her sponsor.

So not only did the Holy Spirit inspire us to attend today, but also got the priest to delay Mass until we arrived!  We had no idea that Flora (a former atheist) was being received into the church, and neither did we know that Flora had asked for Fran to be her sponsor.

Never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit.

[Shaker]

Never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit.

I prefer never to underestimate the power of human credulity.

There's rather more evidence for that.

[Leonard James]

So not only did the Holy Spirit inspire us to attend today, but also got the priest to delay Mass until we arrived!  We had no idea that Flora (a former atheist) was being received into the church, and neither did we know that Flora had asked for Fran to be her sponsor.

Poor Flora seems a tad detached from reality if she hadn't even mentioned her wishes to your missus. 

Never underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit.

Or your gullibility! 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

Poor Flora seems a tad detached from reality if she hadn't even mentioned her wishes to your missus. 

Yes, I was thinking about that myself, maybe Alan's Priest is not hooked up to the power of the BT ( kidding Alan you are a lovely guy, bit to old school for me, but God Loves a trier )

Oh! and Leonard, my evidence is in my last post, but it is personal, not the kind of evidence you atheist chaps like, and before I forget, have a very Happy New Year

Dear Alan,

Sorry about my flippancy above, bad habit of mine, anyway one of my closest friends is a sponsor, in fact he has sponsored quite a few people, he is very good at walking people through the do's and don't's of Roman Catholicism, very quiet guy about his faith, lovely man, his only downfall is he drinks like a fish but I have never seen him intoxicated, very infuriating

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

... my evidence is in my last post, but it is personal, not the kind of evidence you atheist chaps like

Because it's non-evidence, Gonners! Most people feel the same way about pleasing experiences, but they don't call them "God"!

 

and before I forget, have a very Happy New Year

You too, you old reprobate!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

You too, you old reprobate!

Old!! reprobate yes, but old

Gonnagle.

[jeremyp]

What reasonable argument do you think I am impervious to?

All of them.

[Alan Burns]

Poor Flora seems a tad detached from reality if she hadn't even mentioned her wishes to your missus. 

We since found out that her original sponsor could not make it, and Flora chose Fran as a last minute replacement, even though she did not know for sure if she was coming to the service.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

All of them.

Yes but apart from those....what reasonable arguments have I been impervious to?