Searching for GOD...

[Outrider]

I do not know what animals feel.

Nor do any of us - on that basis, to categorically decide that animals are incapable of feeling or a degree of conceptualisation is as wrong as to presume that they are capable. If we don't know, we don't know and can't use that as the foundation for an argument.

I still think we can attach too much human interpretation to animal's reactions.

Perhaps, but we also have a tendency to attach too much significance to the degree of abstract conceptualisation of which we're capable in comparison to other animals.

O.
[/quote]

[Rhiannon]

Quite a profound reading from yesterday's Mass, from the first letter of St John;
I would like to share it for it has some valid messages:

We know that he lives in us
by the Spirit that he has given us.
It is not every spirit, my dear people, that you can trust;
test them, to see if they come from God,
there are many false prophets, now, in the world.
You can tell the spirits that come from God by this:
every spirit which acknowledges that Jesus the Christ has come in the flesh
is from God;
As for them, they are of the world,
and so they speak the language of the world
and the world listens to them.
But we are children of God,
and those who know God listen to us;
those who are not of God refuse to listen to us.
This is how we can tell
the spirit of truth from the spirit of falsehood.

I can live with not being of your god.

[Alan Burns]

Just going back to Sassy's opening post on this thread,

The source of our belief, or non belief, must lie deep within our inner self (our soul if you like!).  We either want to believe or we do not want to believe.  For those who want to believe, there is abundant evidence for God to be discovered.  My own faith grows daily - one lifetime is not enough to fully discover God.

For those who do not want to believe, there will always be many reasons to choose from.  The devil has them in abundance for those who wish to use them.

However there are some who did not want to believe, but have seen through the shallow logic of their reasons for not believing.  There is always hope.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Have a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snl4U8HPdtQ

And then tell me that this Orang Utan isn't capable of conceptualisation, forward planning, mistake correction, reward deferment etc etc

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The source of our belief, or non belief, must lie deep within our inner self (our soul if you like!).  We either want to believe or we do not want to believe.  For those who want to believe, there is abundant evidence for God to be discovered.  My own faith grows daily - one lifetime is not enough to fully discover God.

For those who do not want to believe, there will always be many reasons to choose from.  The devil has them in abundance for those who wish to use them.

However there are some who did not want to believe, but have seen through the shallow logic of their reasons for not believing.  There is always hope.

Actually the "source of our belief" is more likely to lie within the pattern-seeking limbic system we share with lizards, and we populate those patterns with explanations because we have pre-frontal cortexes to do the work.

The "abundance of evidence for God" you've offered so far consists only of retro-fitted claims of divine causality for ordinary phenomena that don't require it, and the only "shallow logic" has been the series of logical fallacies and poor reasoning on which you've built your position.

As you seem to be entirely impervious to reason though, I wish you well in it nonetheless. 

[Rhiannon]

Just going back to Sassy's opening post on this thread,

The source of our belief, or non belief, must lie deep within our inner self (our soul if you like!).  We either want to believe or we do not want to believe.  For those who want to believe, there is abundant evidence for God to be discovered.  My own faith grows daily - one lifetime is not enough to fully discover God.

For those who do not want to believe, there will always be many reasons to choose from.  The devil has them in abundance for those who wish to use them.

However there are some who did not want to believe, but have seen through the shallow logic of their reasons for not believing.  There is always hope.

Alan, I wanted to believe but it felt like God told me to fuck off. Get out of your Jesus-wants-us-all-for-sunbeams bubble and face that this is not a matter of choice.

[Leonard James]

You can tell the spirits that come from God by this: every spirit which acknowledges that Jesus the Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

In other words unless you believe in the virgin birth story, the spirit of "God" is not in you.

What a childishly simple ploy to capture the gullible! 

[BeRational]

Just going back to Sassy's opening post on this thread,

The source of our belief, or non belief, must lie deep within our inner self (our soul if you like!).  We either want to believe or we do not want to believe.  For those who want to believe, there is abundant evidence for God to be discovered.  My own faith grows daily - one lifetime is not enough to fully discover God.

For those who do not want to believe, there will always be many reasons to choose from.  The devil has them in abundance for those who wish to use them.

However there are some who did not want to believe, but have seen through the shallow logic of their reasons for not believing.  There is always hope.

I neither want to believe or not believe something.

I only believe things where I find the evidence compellng.

I have NO choice about what I believe, and nor do you.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Have a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snl4U8HPdtQ

And then tell me that this Orang Utan isn't capable of conceptualisation, forward planning, mistake correction, reward deferment etc etc

Sorry, but people's interpretation of an Orang Utan's behaviour can have no effect on my personal relationship with God. 

And I still maintain that there is no evidence of any other species being capable of belief (or disbelief) in God, which would be ultimate evidence for having a God given soul.

[Outrider]

The source of our belief, or non belief, must lie deep within our inner self (our soul if you like!).

Perhaps - if that were the case, though, it would seem to preclude people changing their opinion on that. If, as you seem to suggest, it's a matter of 'soul', then it's an intrinsic part of how we are made - why are some of us 'made' as unbelievers?

We either want to believe or we do not want to believe.

I don't see that belief is a matter of what you want - it's a conclusion you come to subconsciously.

For those who want to believe, there is abundant evidence for God to be discovered.

If the evidence only serves as evidence for those who want to belief, then I'd question the validity of the evidence - that sounds like blatant confirmation bias, to me.

My own faith grows daily - one lifetime is not enough to fully discover God.

How do you measure faith?

For those who do not want to believe, there will always be many reasons to choose from.  The devil has them in abundance for those who wish to use them.

You appreciate, of course, that those of us who don't believe in gods don't believe in all the gods, 'the devil' included?

However there are some who did not want to believe, but have seen through the shallow logic of their reasons for not believing.

How is the logic 'shallow'? What does 'shallow' logic even mean? Something is either a logical deduction or it is not, there is no 'depth' to logic. You don't need a 'reason' for not believing, it's the natural state - we aren't born believing in anything, because we have no conception of anything to believe in. We are taught, based on geography and cultural surroundings, various ideas and put under various social pressures to accept unsubstantiated claims as valid - there's no 'depth' to that, it's a matter of circumstance which story you're exposed to at which points, and how credulous you might be at that point in your life.

O.

[Outrider]

Sorry, but people's interpretation of an Orang Utan's behaviour can have no effect on my personal relationship with God.

So we're special because we can do something that animals can't, and if animals can you're not going to listen...

And I still maintain that there is no evidence of any other species being capable of belief (or disbelief) in God, which would be ultimate evidence for having a God given soul.

Your evidence for a soul is the ability to believe in God, and your evidence for God is the souls which give us the ability to believe in God... And you maintain that humanity is special by ignoring any evidence that suggests it might not be.

Circular reasoning and reality denial in a twitter-sized post... impressive.

O.

[Maeght]

Just going back to Sassy's opening post on this thread,

The source of our belief, or non belief, must lie deep within our inner self (our soul if you like!).  We either want to believe or we do not want to believe.  For those who want to believe, there is abundant evidence for God to be discovered.  My own faith grows daily - one lifetime is not enough to fully discover God.

For those who do not want to believe, there will always be many reasons to choose from.  The devil has them in abundance for those who wish to use them.

However there are some who did not want to believe, but have seen through the shallow logic of their reasons for not believing.  There is always hope.

Sorry Alan, I know I wasn't going to join in on this anymore but having seen that post I have to say that that is complete nonsense. You believe so see stuff to support your beliefs. I have no belief and see no evidence to support your beliefs. There is no choice about it or 'want' and to start talking about the Devil and shallow logic is pretty insulting.

[Rhiannon]

The influence of the devil's the ultimate get-out clause for some within Christianity. It's really quite medieval. And tiresome.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Sorry, but people's interpretation of an Orang Utan's behaviour can have no effect on my personal relationship with God.

It's belief in a "relationship with God" Alan, and no-one said that it should have an effect. The Orang Utan's behaviour does though suggest strongly that your claims about the limitations of non-human animals are wrong, and so one of the planks that support your belief is demonstrably rotten.

And I still maintain that there is no evidence of any other species being capable of belief (or disbelief) in God, which would be ultimate evidence for having a God given soul.

It would be evidence ("ultimate" or otherwise) of no such thing. Other animals aren't capable of believing in Ra or Jack Frost either - according to your thinking, does that mean that these entities must have given some of us their versions of "souls" too, or are you claiming special pleading only in respect of the supernatural belief you happen to like best?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Outrider,

You don't need a 'reason' for not believing, it's the natural state -

I feel quite faint, light headed, I think I am coming down with a case of atheism

Show me the evidence, show me the evidence, show me the evidence.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Congratulations, Alan! Your stubborn persistence to believe in the "God" story has everybody jumping to show how wrong you are.

I'm sure it is quite obvious to everybody that no amount of reasoned argument is going to change your mind, and yet we keep doing it!

 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

Aye!! this is some thread, Alan Burns the star and we are all bit players in the great saga, Searching for GOD.

Gonnagle.

[Rhiannon]

Well, Alan's certainly very good at being polite and insulting at the same time.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi Gonners,

I feel quite faint, light headed, I think I am coming down with a case of atheism

Show me the evidence, show me the evidence, show me the evidence.

The evidence is you - you are an atheist, only not in respect of just one of the countless available gods. Pitch up on a previously undiscovered island though and no-one there will believe in your god. Doubtless they'll believe in different causal explanations for the phenomena they observe as their need for explanations would be as strong as yours, but there it is.

[BeRational]

Dear Outrider,

I feel quite faint, light headed, I think I am coming down with a case of atheism

Show me the evidence, show me the evidence, show me the evidence.

Gonnagle.

The evidence is simple.

What things do you currently believe that you have never heard of?

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

Aye!! this is some thread, Alan Burns the star and we are all bit players in the great saga, Searching for GOD.

Gonnagle.

Not me, Gonners! I found him when quite young, and then saw through him! 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue,

My God?

Pitch up on a previously undiscovered island though and no-one there will believe in your god.

Correct, but they would believe.

Fact!! in the history of man, we have never, ever came across that elusive tribe, atheist.

Gonnagle.

[Shaker]

I do not know what animals feel.  I still think we can attach too much human interpretation to animal's reactions.

It's a small nudge but the goalposts are on the move again ...

[Gonnagle]

Dear Berational,

Can you try that, being rational

What things do you currently believe that you have never heard of?

Not things, much simpler than that, the actual state of believing.

Gonnagle.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gonners,

Correct, but they would believe.

Fact!! in the history of man, we have never, ever came across that elusive tribe, atheist.

Thats because we seek patterns and explanations, and because we prefer a conspiracy theory to no theory at all. The point though is that countless tribes have believed in countless causal agencies in which you do not believe. Why privilege your belief in the Christian god over, say, the Polynesian islander's belief in his volcano god?