Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

Just going back to Sassy's opening post on this thread,

The source of our belief, or non belief, must lie deep within our inner self (our soul if you like!).  We either want to believe or we do not want to believe.  For those who want to believe, there is abundant evidence for God to be discovered.  My own faith grows daily - one lifetime is not enough to fully discover God.

For those who do not want to believe, there will always be many reasons to choose from.  The devil has them in abundance for those who wish to use them.

However there are some who did not want to believe, but have seen through the shallow logic of their reasons for not believing.  There is always hope.

Well Alan, the old assertion of voluntarism - that belief is a matter of free choice, no doubt devolving ultimately to your beloved free will - rears its head again, I see. Goodness knows we've seen it countless times before.

The standard challenge to the voluntarists is the same as ever: believe something you now don't believe. Set aside a certain period of time today - half an hour; an hour; your call - and don't believe in God.

Let us know how you get on. When you come back and say that it's impossible, that'll be the point at which we remind you that your would-be argument about voluntarism has just been shat on from a great height, so that you can move on to your next fallacy or assertion all the quicker.

[ippy]

Dear Outrider,

I feel quite faint, light headed, I think I am coming down with a case of atheism

Show me the evidence, show me the evidence, show me the evidence.

Gonnagle.

How have you managed to post using Gonners  avitar and all of the rest Hope, very clever I'd love to know the how.

ippy

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue,

Thats because we seek patterns and explanations, and because we prefer a conspiracy theory to no theory at all. The point though is that countless tribes have believed in countless causal agencies in which you do not believe. Why privilege your belief in the Christian god over, say, the Polynesian islander's belief in his volcano god?

The Christian God? God is God.

And no, the point is that Outrider made a statement,

You don't need a 'reason' for not believing, it's the natural state -

I see no evidence for this, in fact I think I have evolution on my side and I think you verify that, we seek patterns and explanations, we are born to do this, born believers, not believing is not a natural state.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Dear Blue,

Fact!! in the history of man, we have never, ever came across that elusive tribe, atheist.

Gonnagle.

I fear we would need to go back to prehistoric times for that, Gonners. The time when man was no longer an ape, but not yet capable of reasoning about his origin and future.

[Shaker]

Are we born believers? There's a mounting body of evidence that we intrinsically see not only patterns that aren't there but agencies that aren't there, but you've got a lot more links in the chain to add to get from there to saying that humans are innately predisposed to believing in gods.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gonners,

The Christian God? God is God.

The Volcano god? The volcano god is the volcano god.

And no, the point is that Outrider made a statement,

Quote
You don't need a 'reason' for not believing, it's the natural state -

I see no evidence for this, in fact I think I have evolution on my side and I think you verify that, we seek patterns and explanations, we are born to do this, born believers, not believing is not a natural state.

Outy can speak for himself, but yes - our species believes in all manner of things, almost all of which you think to be imaginary. Not believing in any particular god specifically is "the natural state", and so is believing in a bewildering array of gods.

These are not contrary statements. 

[torridon]

Just going back to Sassy's opening post on this thread,

The source of our belief, or non belief, must lie deep within our inner self (our soul if you like!).  We either want to believe or we do not want to believe.  For those who want to believe, there is abundant evidence for God to be discovered.  My own faith grows daily - one lifetime is not enough to fully discover God.

For those who do not want to believe, there will always be many reasons to choose from.  The devil has them in abundance for those who wish to use them.

However there are some who did not want to believe, but have seen through the shallow logic of their reasons for not believing.  There is always hope.

At base, it doesn't really work like that. We believe that which we have convincing evidence for, not what we want to believe. If we all went around with attitudes like that, human civilisation would be untenable. We don't go around believing things for no good reason.

[Aruntraveller]

Dear Blue,

The Christian God? God is God.

And no, the point is that Outrider made a statement,

I see no evidence for this, in fact I think I have evolution on my side and I think you verify that, we seek patterns and explanations, we are born to do this, born believers, not believing is not a natural state.

Gonnagle.

Gonners - I keep coming back to the fact that were you born in India in all probability you would believe in a whole plethora of Gods and Godesses; Vishnu, Lakshmi, Ganesha, et al.

Is this belief correct or incorrect?

We are told by many Christians on here that there is only One True God. How do you reconcile the beliefs of Hindu's which are every bit as sincere and truly held as your own, if you do consider their beliefs to be erroneous?

In fact can you not see the monumental self-righteousness, not to mention how insulting you are to different faiths, in holding to a position of one true God?

[wigginhall]

Well, Alan's certainly very good at being polite and insulting at the same time.

Yes, he seems like a harmless crank at first, but then we get the talk of shallow logic and the devil putting thoughts in your head - hello, here is that awful arrogance which some Christians possess and of course, told them that they should persecute those who are possessed by the devil.

So behind the politeness, lies something quite chilling.  He knows best, and you are quite shallow and demonic.

[Nearly Sane]

Gonners - I keep coming back to the fact that were you born in India in all probability you would believe in a whole plethora of Gods and Godesses; Vishnu, Lakshmi, Ganesha, et al.

Is this belief correct or incorrect?

We are told by many Christians on here that there is only One True God. How do you reconcile the beliefs of Hindu's which are every bit as sincere and truly held as your own, if you do consider their beliefs to be erroneous?

In fact can you not see the monumental self-righteousness, not to mention how insulting you are to different faiths, in holding to a position of one true God?

In general I am staying away from this thread as it keeps going round in circles and Tbh the whole 'god' stuff seems a tad boring currently but I feel I should point out Gonzo isn't doing a OTW here, he's following the many ways approach. There really isn't much point in citing other people, it's like Vlad's obsessive ankle shagging of Dawkins, deal with what Gonzo says not what 'Christians' say.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue,

You and others keep mentioning God, all I am arguing for is the natural state, we are born to believe.

Dear Leonard,

I fear we would need to go back to prehistoric times for that, Gonners. The time when man was no longer an ape, but not yet capable of reasoning about his origin and future.

The very weird part of my mind asks, do apes believe in God, the whole of the animal kingdom laughing at us, stupid humans arguing, is there a God.

The sensible part of my mind tells me that God, the idea of God, the evidence is that a spiritual world has been with us since we stepped out of the cave.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

The very weird part of my mind asks, do apes believe in God, the whole of the animal kingdom laughing at us, stupid humans arguing, is there a God.

I think that is imagination for the sake of it!

The sensible part of my mind tells me that God, the idea of God, the evidence is that a spiritual world has been with us since we stepped out of the cave.

Yes! And that is precisely when we invented "the spiritual world".

All mankind previous to that point didn't believe in gods because they didn't need to invent them.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Gonners,

You and others keep mentioning God, all I am arguing for is the natural state, we are born to believe.

We're "born" to look for and accept patterns and explanations. There is a theory that religion is a misfiring or a by-product of that instinct, but that's a different matter from discussion about the objects of our beliefs. Belief is a general phenomenon; belief in your or any other god specifically isn't. 

[BeRational]

Dear Berational,

Can you try that, being rational

Not things, much simpler than that, the actual state of believing.

Gonnagle.

The natural default state is to NOT believe.

You have to move  from this position to believe.

[Aruntraveller]

In general I am staying away from this thread as it keeps going round in circles and Tbh the whole 'god' stuff seems a tad boring currently but I feel I should point out Gonzo isn't doing a OTW here, he's following the many ways approach. There really isn't much point in citing other people, it's like Vlad's obsessive ankle shagging of Dawkins, deal with what Gonzo says not what 'Christians' say.

Maybe. I suppose I was just thinking generally and shouldn't have linked it to Gonzo's specific point. I still feel that this point is never addressed by Christian believers - or indeed believers of most other faiths. I say "most" because Hinduism does allow that you can come to God through more than one pathway.

I like you have been avoiding this thread as it is a bit like a fugue i.e. a bit of tune that dissapears up its own backside. (Paraphrasing Reg Hill)

PS Are you really saying that I suffer the same kind of obsessive tendancies as the beloved Vlad!

[Gonnagle]

Dear Trent,

What our Sane just said, one of the sayings attributed to Our Lord is, I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me, I am not supposed to argue with the teachings of Our Lord but that one jars, as Sane says, I think there are many paths to the Father.

Gonnagle.

[torridon]

Alan, given your views on animals not having feelings or consciousness what do you make of this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35204936

But can these animals, (or any other species), contemplate the concept of eternity, or infinity? 

possibly not, I would imagine, but that doesn't mean that that they do not have conscious awareness. Observation suggests they do have a unitary focal point of conscious perception, volition and intentionality, just like us humans, all without the need for a 'soul', apparently.

[Leonard James]

Dear Trent,

What our Sane just said, one of the sayings attributed to Our Lord is, I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me, I am not supposed to argue with the teachings of Our Lord but that one jars, as Sane says, I think there are many paths to the Father.

Gonnagle.

What father? We only have one father, and most of us can get to him while he is alive.

[Outrider]

Dear Outrider,

I feel quite faint, light headed, I think I am coming down with a case of atheism

Show me the evidence, show me the evidence, show me the evidence.

Gonnagle.

Beliefs - discrete, relatable pieces of conceptualisation - require a linguistic framework in which to exist. The absence of language in infants precludes the existence of belief.

O.

[BeRational]

Dear Blue,

You and others keep mentioning God, all I am arguing for is the natural state, we are born to believe.

Dear Leonard,

The very weird part of my mind asks, do apes believe in God, the whole of the animal kingdom laughing at us, stupid humans arguing, is there a God.

The sensible part of my mind tells me that God, the idea of God, the evidence is that a spiritual world has been with us since we stepped out of the cave.

Gonnagle.

We are born to pattern seek, and then trust these patterns to help us make decisions.
We see a pattern think we have found a cause, and think we can then predict future actions.

And we can most of the time. Planes fly, computers work.
But praying does not work, you do not live on after death this is where the pattern seeking has gone wrong.

[Leonard James]

Beliefs - discrete, relatable pieces of conceptualisation - require a linguistic framework in which to exist. The absence of language in infants precludes the existence of belief.

O.

Brilliant! Another lamp is switched on!

[Outrider]

And no, the point is that Outrider made a statement,

I see no evidence for this, in fact I think I have evolution on my side and I think you verify that, we seek patterns and explanations, we are born to do this, born believers, not believing is not a natural state.

I think you're confusing having beliefs with having the capacity - inclination, even - for belief. We are born without any actual beliefs, but it seems with an inclination towards inventing explanations for events.

We are born atheists because we are born without a concept of gods of any kind. We are born with a tendency to find agency and patterns, and so there is a tendency to accept/create the idea of god.

O.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Berational,

You have to move  from this position to believe.

What! when you are born, when you are dragged kicking and screaming into this world, hundreds of thousands of years of evolution has brought you that very moment, and I think we all agree that evolution tells us what kind of creature we are.

Gonnagle.

[torridon]

Dear Torridon,

I instinctively know there is a God, my gut feeling tells me there is a God.

Yes our intuitions have evolved over millions of years, and they have done a grand job, without them me and you might not be having this discussion.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/intuition

Gonnagle.

My gut feeling tells me the floor under my feet is solid, but it isn't really. My gut feeling is that time and space are absolutes, but now we know they aren't really.

The big advances in scientific understanding have all confounded our intuitions, all of which evolved not because they were true, but because they were useful.

[Nearly Sane]

Maybe. I suppose I was just thinking generally and shouldn't have linked it to Gonzo's specific point. I still feel that this point is never addressed by Christian believers - or indeed believers of most other faiths. I say "most" because Hinduism does allow that you can come to God through more than one pathway.

I like you have been avoiding this thread as it is a bit like a fugue i.e. a bit of tune that dissapears up its own backside. (Paraphrasing Reg Hill)

PS Are you really saying that I suffer the same kind of obsessive tendancies as the beloved Vlad!

No, I don't think you are like Vlad, to be clearer it's like Alien's use of 'But that's not what most atheists say' as if it is a useful point. It's OK as a question. But it isn't useful as any form of argument. Gonzo continually posts a many ways approach so deal with what he says, not ask him to justify other theists/Christians/Glaswegians. 'you are all individuals'