Searching for GOD...

[Gonnagle]

Dear Berational,

So you agree that we are not born to believe in a god?

Baby steps, born to believe is all I was arguing for, but as Srirams link points out, it may just be the tip of the iceberg.

Dear ippy,

Who loves ya baby

Gonnagle.

[Outrider]

But we are said to be born hardwired to believe in a God.

Yes, that's said, but it's not quite the case. We are hard-wired to believe, but not to believe anything specifically - we are hardwired to believe, but not to believe in any particular god necessarily.

Which means that belief in God and an after life is more than just 'nurture'.

No, it doesn't, it categorically suggests that it's EXACTLY nurture - that specific tale needs to be conveyed, which is why historically people have believed not in the Christian God but rather in the traditions and stories of their locale.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

I agree - perhaps natural wasn't the greatest choice of word.

Leaving that aside, it's excellent at laying out that what is done normally doesn't work in science - the hard thing is getting across why that is the good thing that it is.

[BeRational]

Dear Berational,


Baby steps, born to believe is all I was arguing for, but as Srirams link points out, it may just be the tip of the iceberg.

Dear ippy,

Who loves ya baby

Gonnagle.

I agree we are born to accept stuff.

This is not the same as being born to believe in any god though.

What you believe will depend initially on what you are taught and what experiences you have.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, that's said, but it's not quite the case. We are hard-wired to believe, but not to believe anything specifically - we are hardwired to believe, but not to believe in any particular god necessarily.

Which doesn't in any sense make it any more likely to be wrong

No, it doesn't, it categorically suggests that it's EXACTLY nurture - that specific tale needs to be conveyed, which is why historically people have believed not in the Christian God but rather in the traditions and stories of their locale.

O.

How does pure nurture work? If it is that, then no one would have comeup with it to start with.

[Nearly Sane]

I agree we are born to accept stuff.

This is not the same as being born to believe in any god though.

What you believe will depend initially on what you are taught and what experiences you have.

So nothing to do with nature at all?

[BeRational]

So nothing to do with nature at all?

Nature is what gives you your initial brain state.

Evolution has crafted us in this way, to accept what we are told initially and learn from as many places as we can.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Outrider,

Yes, that's said, but it's not quite the case. We are hard-wired to believe, but not to believe anything specifically - we are hardwired to believe, but not to believe in any particular god necessarily.

What!! You could have just said, yes Gonners, once again you are right.

And yes it is a pain being right all the time

Gonnagle.

[Sriram]

Yes, that's said, but it's not quite the case. We are hard-wired to believe, but not to believe anything specifically - we are hardwired to believe, but not to believe in any particular god necessarily.

No, it doesn't, it categorically suggests that it's EXACTLY nurture - that specific tale needs to be conveyed, which is why historically people have believed not in the Christian God but rather in the traditions and stories of their locale.

O.

Who said anything about a particular God or about Christianity?

From the Science Daily article:.......

********

"We have gathered a body of evidence that suggests that religion is a common fact of human nature across different societies. This suggests that attempts to suppress religion are likely to be short-lived as human thought seems to be rooted to religious concepts, such as the existence of supernatural agents or gods, and the possibility of an afterlife or pre-life.'"

********

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sriram,

"We have gathered a body of evidence that suggests that religion is a common fact of human nature across different societies.

 

Gonnagle.

[BeRational]

Dear Outrider,

What!! You could have just said, yes Gonners, once again you are right.

And yes it is a pain being right all the time

Gonnagle.

People agree that we are hard wired to believe.

What we do NOT agree on, is that we are hard wired to believe in any God.

Do you accept that?

[Alan Burns]

....  they should persecute those who are possessed by the devil.

 ???Sorry but I missed this bit of the New Testament.  I can only recall Jesus and His disciples helping those possessed.

[BeRational]

???Sorry but I missed this bit of the New Testament.  I can only recall Jesus and His disciples helping those possessed.

Devils and demons of course do not exist.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Outy,

Beliefs - discrete, relatable pieces of conceptualisation - require a linguistic framework in which to exist. The absence of language in infants precludes the existence of belief.

Is that actually true? A newborn will seek out a bare boob - it has an expectation at least that it will be fed when it does, and later on (but still pre-language) the repeated boob = milk pattern arguably forms a "belief" of some kind. Elephants too seem to have behaviours that at some level at least could be called "beliefs" - apparently "mourning" their dead for example.

I guess it depends on whether you think "belief" means "codified" (eg, expressed in language) or something else?   

[bluehillside Retd.]

BR,

People agree that we are hard wired to believe.

Seems to me that we are actually "hard wired" to trust our senses, our reasoning etc despite our conclusions often being wrong when we mis-read the patterns, fail to grasp how randomness and probability work etc. This pattern-seeking has served us magnificently, but as a means of establishing probable truths it's more a blunderbuss than a rifle. 

What we do NOT agree on, is that we are hard wired to believe in any God.

Do you accept that?

Sort of. We seem to be pre-disposed to believe in causal explanations, and when material ones aren't apparent we reach instinctively for non-material alternatives. That we sometimes call these explanations "gods" is the end game rather than the basic process I think.   

[Nearly Sane]

Nature is what gives you your initial brain state.

Evolution has crafted us in this way, to accept what we are told initially and learn from as many places as we can.

Evolution fail

[BeRational]

Evolution fail

No it's not.

Comprehension fail.

[Nearly Sane]

No it's not.

Comprehension fail.

Except it was by you - stating that evolution has crafted us is a straight out failure attributing intention, never mind that it then precludes any form of change or questioning and therefore means that no one has any way of rejecting non natural claims so cannot take an atheist position logically.

[Shaker]

???Sorry but I missed this bit of the New Testament.  I can only recall Jesus and His disciples helping those possessed.

Unless they were pigs.

[BeRational]

Except it was by you - stating that evolution has crafted us is a straight out failure attributing intention, never mind that it then precludes any form of change or questioning and therefore means that no one has any way of rejecting non natural claims so cannot take an atheist position logically.

It's a figure of speach.

I could have easily have said evolution designed us in such a way.

We all understand that evolution has no goal and no mind, it's just that what works is kept, and what fails de-selects itself.

So, evolution has designed us in such way that we are pattern seeking and open to believe stuff especially when young.

[Rhiannon]

???Sorry but I missed this bit of the New Testament.  I can only recall Jesus and His disciples helping those possessed.

Does demonic possession still exist, Alan?

[BeRational]

Does demonic possession still exist, Alan?

I hope he says no.

[Nearly Sane]

It's a figure of speach.

I could have easily have said evolution designed us in such a way.

We all understand that evolution has no goal and no mind, it's just that what works is kept, and what fails de-selects itself.

So, evolution has designed us in such way that we are pattern seeking and open to believe stuff especially when young.

Dseigned is also wrong. As to open to believe stuff - what does that mean? Bus timetables? What Justin Bieber sings about?

[BeRational]

Dseigned is also wrong. As to open to believe stuff - what does that mean? Bus timetables? What Justin Bieber sings about?

This is tedious.

To accept ideas and behaviours of those around you, especially parents when very young.

No more.

[Shaker]

I hope he says no.

But I bet he'll say yes.