Searching for GOD...

[Leonard James]

Alan and Sassy's argument for their god is precisely the same as you use for free will - personal experience.

Not so! Everybody is capable of choosing how to act ... they are not bound to one course of action.

[wigginhall]

(reply to NS). I don't think that anybody is critical of personal experience, are they?  The trouble is, that some Christians start saying that my personal experience should be yours also, and if it isn't, there is something wrong with you.  You also get that weird mixture of metaphysical and scientific ideas which just sounds half-cocked.  The brain can't choose something, as it is a deterministic machine, therefore there is a soul, therefore Jesus.  Eh?

[Nearly Sane]

Not so! Everybody is capable of choosing how to act ... they Are not bound to one course of action.

And that's just like one of AB's Assertatron statementd

[Leonard James]

And that's just like one of AB's Assertatron statementd

Are you telling me that nobody has any choice on how to act?

[wigginhall]

And that's just like one of AB's Assertatron statementd

Ah, correction to my post above: I see what you mean by this use of assertion as to personal experience, which is then generalized - everybody sees it like me, and my personal  experience must indicate the truth.

[floo]

Here we have the very proof... No! The trolls are trying to wum the believer by diplomatically insulting the other person. Not clever, not sincere and certainly evident that you are guilty of the very thing you accuse Alan of doing. So now you are uncovered where is the shame? NONE! But at least everyone knows the truth of the trolls and insults. Just think your whole kingdom just fell in on itself.

Sass, you have your trollery down to a fine art!

[Leonard James]

Ah, correction to my post above: I see what you mean by this use of assertion as to personal experience, which is then generalized - everybody sees it like me, and my personal  experience must indicate the truth.

Show me somebody who (apart from mental problems) can't make a choice in their behaviour, and I will consider it.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Torridon,

Uncertainty is not will.

We are not sure if there is genuine randomness in quantum events; if there is then we can say goodbye to the deterministic model of the universe but that does not validate the idea of free will.  Will is purposeful; any randomness would ruin purpose.

I get that, it is the other word that bothers me.

Belief in free will is one of those intuitions, like belief in God.  Doesn't really stand up to scrutiny if you think it through though.

Oh Riley!! intuitions, gut feelings, instinctively, just knowing it is right, feeling the presence of Jesus in my life, it all works for me, and believe me when I say, I have thought it through, everyday I think it through, every day I doubt God and everyday I am grabbed kicking and screaming back to him, in the nicest possible way, well maybe some days are not so nice as others, God is a very, I told you so God.

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

Are you telling me that nobody has any choice on how to act?

No, just as I don't say there is no god(s), your claim, your burden of proof.

[wigginhall]

Sass, you have your trollery down to a fine art!

My kingdom fell in on itself when I had chocolate for breakfast.  I have asked Quetzalcoatl for forgiveness, and he has told me that it's OK, since he is the god of chocolate.   As you know, Quetzalcoatl stole the chocolate plant from the heavens, and we know this is true, cos it says so on the chocolate wrapper, and in my '100 exciting recipes using chocolate', nice prezzie.

[Leonard James]

No, just as I don't say there is no god(s), your claim, your burden of proof.

Pretty well everybody can choose whether to follow their inclinations or not do so. What more "proof" do you want than that?

[Nearly Sane]

Ah, correction to my post above: I see what you mean by this use of assertion as to personal experience, which is then generalized - everybody sees it like me, and my personal  experience must indicate the truth.

sort of. It doesn't matter if everyone has the same experience as to whether something is the truth. As noted many times, there is the Isaiah Berlin quote 'Of course I believe in free will, I have no choice'

[Nearly Sane]

Pretty well everybody can choose whether to follow their inclinations or not do so. What more "proof" do you want than that?

Something that isn't a circular assertion.

[ippy]

I am with you on this one, Gonners, because no matter what previous events are inclining you to behave in a certain way you can always choose not to ... if only to demonstrate that you have free will.

Len ask yourself, "can I chose to have free will or not"?

In my view, free will or not discussions are nothing to do with free will, they're pointless exchanges about semantics, except for religionists that are up their own and think there is something very profound about this issue that isn't really an issue.

The muddled thinking about free will is only an issue inside of the already muddled thinking minds of religionists, as if there is some kind of oik sitting somewhere thinking to its self, oooh, I know while I'm putting these little two legged things together perhaps I'll give them free will

There isn't anything mythical or mystical  there I'm missing it's just another load of old religion based nonsense, unless the necessary missing evidence can be found, of course.

I don't dislike Alan or Gonners or, come to that, anyone else on the forum, but even though there's not a lot of difference between G & A with their god belief, at least Alan comes straight out with it, whether the reader likes it or not, I have a preference for straight speaking.

ippy

[Gonnagle]

Dear Leonard,

Yes old Sane has tried to explain this freewill thing to me, I do get where he is coming from, something like, we don't really have choice, we only think we have a choice, our choices are governed by who we are, our upbringing, our genetic makeup, Einstein says much the same, it is an illusion, it is a tough one to grapple with, if you google freewill, it just makes your head spin.

The good thing is this debate has been going on for centuries, this comforts me and tells me that you and me are not alone, others struggle with the concept.

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Something that isn't a circular assertion.

OK. All the evidence points to the fact that we have free will, but there are still some people that deny it.

Is that non-circular enough for you? 

[Nearly Sane]

OK. All the evidence points to the fact that we have free will, but there are still some people that deny it.

Is that non-circular enough for you? 

Nope, and it's a further assertion. What evidence?

[Leonard James]

Len ask yourself, "can I chose to have free will or not"?

That is not the same thing. We can't choose whether to have abilities or not, but we CAN choose how to act.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Leonard,

Yes old Sane has tried to explain this freewill thing to me, I do get where he is coming from, something like, we don't really have choice, we only think we have a choice, our choices are governed by who we are, our upbringing, our genetic makeup, Einstein says much the same, it is an illusion, it is a tough one to grapple with, if you google freewill, it just makes your head spin.

The good thing is this debate has been going on for centuries, this comforts me and tells me that you and me are not alone, others struggle with the concept.

Gonnagle.

As covered with Leonard, this isn't about a denial of free will, it's asking you to back up the claim that you have it.

[Leonard James]

Dear Leonard,

Yes old Sane has tried to explain this freewill thing to me, I do get where he is coming from, something like, we don't really have choice, we only think we have a choice, our choices are governed by who we are, our upbringing, our genetic makeup, Einstein says much the same, it is an illusion, it is a tough one to grapple with, if you google freewill, it just makes your head spin.

The good thing is this debate has been going on for centuries, this comforts me and tells me that you and me are not alone, others struggle with the concept.

Gonnagle.

I'm not gonna struggle ... there are more important things to cope with! 

[Leonard James]

Nope, and it's a further assertion. What evidence?

The whole of humanity is the evidence.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Wigs,

My kingdom fell in on itself when I had chocolate for breakfast.  I have asked Quetzalcoatl for forgiveness, and he has told me that it's OK, since he is the god of chocolate.   As you know, Quetzalcoatl stole the chocolate plant from the heavens, and we know this is true, cos it says so on the chocolate wrapper, and in my '100 exciting recipes using chocolate', nice prezzie.

You are just plain weird man ( I like weird ) and one of the reasons I know there is a God, how can evolution fully explain the above post, only a mind that is truly blessed could fashion such.............well whatever it is, it is blessed

Gonnagle.

[Nearly Sane]

The whole of humanity is the evidence.

This is just an ad populum.

[ippy]

That is not the same thing. We can't choose whether to have abilities or not, but we CAN choose how to act.

Whatever level of intelligence the DNA lottery has allotted to the relevant persons

Maybe I should have added the above to my former post.

ippy

[Leonard James]

This is just an ad populum.

Call it whatever you choose ... it's still evidence.