Searching for GOD...

[torridon]

But I am in control - I do not want to believe that Mohammed is God's messenger because I know it is not true.  It is my conscious self, my soul, which is ultimately responsible for my actions.  I can choose to hop up and down on one leg if I wish.  Knowledge of the truth is not free to choose.

Maybe it's not you, perhaps it is Sass, I think, who keeps insisting that we can choose to believe in God. I don't think we can choose what it is that we find convincing; but neither can we choose what it is that we like. I cannot just decide to like coffee more than tea if I don't.  This is at the heart of the illusion of choice.

[wigginhall]

Yes, we can't choose what we find attractive, either.  I suppose Christians like AB want to be in charge of everything, and have a horror of their own unconscious producing wants and wishes and ideas.   But how did they decide to want to be in charge?  Ah, that would be the soul, silly me.

[Alan Burns]

Maybe it's not you, perhaps it is Sass, I think, who keeps insisting that we can choose to believe in God. I don't think we can choose what it is that we find convincing; but neither can we choose what it is that we like. I cannot just decide to like coffee more than tea if I don't.  This is at the heart of the illusion of choice.

I totally agree that we cannot choose what we believe to be true.  Our freedom of choice is limited to things we do, or say, or imagine.

[Rhiannon]

I totally agree that we cannot choose what we believe to be true.  Our freedom of choice is limited to things we do, or say, or imagine.

So why bother trying to convince us of your truth?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Alan,

A limited free will

Dear anti free willests,

I do get it, don't think for one moment that your posts are wasted on me, but there is an itch I cannot scratch, maybe just my stubborness, my confirmation bias!!

Gonnagle.

[torridon]

I may be wrong, but I think what Leonard is saying is what he has said about breaking free from a religious upbringing.  By using reason and intelligence it is possible to free oneself from the constraints of past conditioning and choose between continuing to follow a religion or not.  One no longer has to be bound by the past.  Whether one has the will power or energy to complete the change is another matter.  Those with low reasoning abilities and low intelligence may struggle to see beyond their conditioning and take the 'will-less' path of what can I do, everything is predetermined anyway.
The Christian question is a little different as the free choice is either to follow self-will or God's Will, swim upstream against the current or flow downstream to the ocean remaining alert and avoiding obstacles.

yes people mean different things by 'freedom'; clearly a human has more degrees of freedom than a bonobo who has more degrees of freedom than a squirrel who has more degrees of freedom than an ant who has more degrees of freedom than a bean plant who has more degrees of freedom than a pebble. It is our feeling of agency which is at the heart of the common notion of free will, the freedom to override ancient instinctive behaviours with more nuanced and insightful ones. Thus when humiliated by my teacher in front of the whole class my instinctive reaction is to punch him on the nose; this is an ancient behavioural response, hundreds of millions of years old.  But being human, I can think up better revenges, so I go out at night and let his car tyres down, knowing there will be no come back from that. This is human agency, our ability to bring greater depth of consideration to our choices, and this is perhaps only 200,000 years old. Having said all that. at a more fundamental level, all choices are made using deterministic biological computing mechanisms, so cannot be truly and ultimately 'free'; at that level of analysis, the word 'free' ceases to have a real meaning.

[Shaker]

I totally agree that we cannot choose what we believe to be true.

So as Rhi said, why are you here?

[Shaker]

Thus when humiliated by my teacher in front of the whole class my instinctive reaction is to punch him on the nose; this is an ancient behavioural response, hundreds of millions of years old.  But being human, I can think up better revenges, so I go out at night and let his car tyres down, knowing there will be no come back from that.

Is there something you'd like to share with the group, torridon?

[Nearly Sane]

Surely any action is essentially a belief that the action is what you believe you want to do?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Yo Gonners,

A limited free will

Dear anti free willests,

I do get it, don't think for one moment that your posts are wasted on me, but there is an itch I cannot scratch, maybe just my stubborness, my confirmation bias!!

This might help: http://www.samharris.org/free-will

To be truly "free" our will would need to be in some way separate from the stuff of which we're made, including the emergent properties of that stuff. Where would it be? Where is the little man at the controls who can clock off when he feels like it, and how come he doesn't have to have a little man at his controls too?

It's counterintuitive I know, and for many it's unsettling to think that the decisions they make are actually the results of unfathomably long chains of cause and effect but there it is nonetheless. AB can't make the leap from the comforting thought of an independent "I" so he has to invent something he calls a "soul" to take the wheel, but as a meaningful proposition that has no explanatory power of any kind and it flatly contradicts the facts to boot. 

When they come to the realisation some find the loss of ego to be devastating, but other find themselves less self-absorbed, more empathetic and morally aware. It's down to you I guess to react as you wish...

...or maybe not! 

   

[Gordon]

I totally agree that we cannot choose what we believe to be true.  Our freedom of choice is limited to things we do, or say, or imagine.

Not really, Alan, assuming your are alive then your autonomic system will do stuff within your body that you have no conscious control over. Breathing is quite important, but try using your 'free will' to decide not to breathe for 10 minutes: give it a go, but you'll find that long before 10 minutes have elapsed your body will cause you to breathe irrespective of your intent not to.

I'll tell you a story: many years ago, on a dark winter night (about 5pm) in the West of Scotland, I was the last to leave the workplace. I quickly realised I'd left a light on at the end of a corridor so I went back to turn the light off. So I went to end of the corridor and turned off the light and started back along the corridor - however I hadn't turned on any lights on the way in so it was pitch black, and even though I knew I was in familiar surroundings and there was no threat, I simply panicked and ran like a mad thing for the door: a classic automatic adrenaline inspired 'fight or flight' response prompted by an unjustified feeling of panic which simply overwhelmed me.

All part of being a member of a species of biological animal so this is no surprise of course, and no doubt most of us here have scared ourselves silly at some point for no good reason but have been unable manage their response. Add this to your acknowledgment about being unable to choose what to believe, and since it seems that some aspects of our biology aren't under our conscious control, I'd say that your particular view of 'free will' has pretty much unravelled!

[Alan Burns]

So as Rhi said, why are you here?

Simply to convince people of the truth, for the truth sets you free.

[Alan Burns]

Not really, Alan, assuming your are alive then your autonomic system will do stuff within your body that you have no conscious control over. Breathing is quite important, but try using your 'free will' to decide not to breathe for 10 minutes: give it a go, but you'll find that long before 10 minutes have elapsed your body will cause you to breathe irrespective of your intent not to.

I'll tell you a story: many years ago, on a dark winter night (about 5pm) in the West of Scotland, I was the last to leave the workplace. I quickly realised I'd left a light on at the end of a corridor so I went back to turn the light off. So I went to end of the corridor and turned off the light and started back along the corridor - however I hadn't turned on any lights on the way in so it was pitch black, and even though I knew I was in familiar surroundings and there was no threat, I simply panicked and ran like a mad thing for the door: a classic automatic adrenaline inspired 'fight or flight' response prompted by an unjustified feeling of panic which simply overwhelmed me.

All part of being a member of a species of biological animal so this is no surprise of course, and no doubt most of us here have scared ourselves silly at some point for no good reason but have been unable manage their response. Add this to your acknowledgment about being unable to choose what to believe, and since it seems that some aspects of our biology aren't under our conscious control, I'd say that your particular view of 'free will' has pretty much unravelled!

Of course we have built in instincts which can sometimes take over our free will.  I can hold my breath for a minute by an act of free will, but I know my survival instinct will take over if I try for much longer.

[wigginhall]

But large parts of the body operate autonomically, for example, temperature control.   If you start over-heating badly, there is something going wrong, and you need a doctor.  But I suppose AB will agree with this, and say, but. 

There must be a little gap into which I can squeeze the soul, and then Jesus!

[Alan Burns]

But large parts of the body operate autonomically, for example, temperature control.   If you start over-heating badly, there is something going wrong, and you need a doctor.  But I suppose AB will agree with this, and say, but. 

There must be a little gap into which I can squeeze the soul, and then Jesus!

Just as many operations in the workings of an aeroplane are automated, but the pilot still has control of the flight.  The human body is a biological machine driven by the soul.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue,

I will try to look out for the book, Sam Harris is one of the better celeb atheists ( in my opinion ) probably because he uses words and descriptions I can understand, or maybe that he is not so anti theist as some of the other well known atheists.

Just to add, the idea of a soul is not just a Christian idea, but of course you know that, I think I have a soul, the better part of me, listening to a beautiful piece of music, reading a Kipling poem, getting lost in the mind of Pratchett, this is all touching my soul.

Gonnagle.

[Alan Burns]

Surely any action is essentially a belief that the action is what you believe you want to do?

I believe there are many actions I can do.  But I have a free choice over which one I invoke.

[Nearly Sane]

I believe there are many actions I can do.  But I have a free choice over which one I invoke.

But your actions is based on a belief of what you want to do and you have admitted that you cannot choose your beliefs, so logically you cannot choose your actions.

[Alan Burns]

Yo Gonners,

This might help: http://www.samharris.org/free-will

To be truly "free" our will would need to be in some way separate from the stuff of which we're made, including the emergent properties of that stuff. Where would it be? Where is the little man at the controls who can clock off when he feels like it, and how come he doesn't have to have a little man at his controls too?

It's counterintuitive I know, and for many it's unsettling to think that the decisions they make are actually the results of unfathomably long chains of cause and effect but there it is nonetheless. AB can't make the leap from the comforting thought of an independent "I" so he has to invent something he calls a "soul" to take the wheel, but as a meaningful proposition that has no explanatory power of any kind and it flatly contradicts the facts to boot. 

When they come to the realisation some find the loss of ego to be devastating, but other find themselves less self-absorbed, more empathetic and morally aware. It's down to you I guess to react as you wish...

...or maybe not! 

   

I am currently reading an interesting response to Sam Harris written by Kurt Keefner, an atheist who does believe in free will.  It is fascinating to look at the mental gymnastics needed to try to explain our perception of free will, but ultimately the materialists are limited to what the laws of science can do to the atoms and molecules in our brains.  Not much scope for freedom there.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I am currently reading an interesting response to Sam Harris written by Kurt Keefner, an atheist who does believe in free will.  It is fascinating to look at the mental gymnastics needed to try to explain our perception of free will, but ultimately the materialists are limited to what the laws of science can do to the atoms and molecules in our brains.  Not much scope for freedom there.

Just out of interest, what method would you propose the non-materialist should use to validate his beliefs so as to distinguish them from just guessing about stuff?

[Alan Burns]

But your actions is based on a belief of what you want to do and you have admitted that you cannot choose your beliefs, so logically you cannot choose your actions.

I was implying that we cannot choose what we believe to be true.  I believe that I can hit the letter "y" on the keyboard, but I still need an act of free will to hit it.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

I am currently reading an interesting response to Sam Harris written by Kurt Keefner, an atheist who does believe in free will.  It is fascinating to look at the mental gymnastics needed to try to explain our perception of free will, but ultimately the materialists are limited to what the laws of science can do to the atoms and molecules in our brains.  Not much scope for freedom there.

PS I haven't read the Keefner book, though a quick look at the Amazon reviews suggests that those who have thinks it's a poor effort, fundamentally misrepresenting Harris's book and failing to grasp the problem. Not sure I have the will (!) to see whether I agree with them, but we'll see...

[Nearly Sane]

I was implying that we cannot choose what we believe to be true.  I believe that I can hit the letter "y" on the keyboard, but I still need an act of free will to hit it.

But the belief as to what is true applies to the belief of what action one wants to take, as one would believe that want to be true. You haven't presented any case in the qualitative difference in belief you are being forced to defend because of you illogical position.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Just out of interest, what method would you propose the non-materialist should use to validate his beliefs so as to distinguish them from just guessing about stuff?

My faith is certainly not based on guesswork.  It is rooted firmly in the profound revelations and wisdom of the New Testament.  I would advise anyone who finds the materialist explanations for their existence to be lacking credibility to start reading the New Testament.

[Nearly Sane]

My faith is certainly not based on guesswork.  It is rooted firmly in the profound revelations and wisdom of the New Testament.  I would advise anyone who finds the materialist explanations for their existence to be lacking credibility to start reading the New Testament.

So no methodology then.

And of course given you always admitting that you cannot choose to believe what you think is true, it's not even a guess.