Searching for GOD...

[Shaker]

Perhaps then it is more the case a certain type of Christian: not all of course, but certainly those with Alan's outlook, their faith erodes their capacity for reason and insight thereby leaving those afflicted with a tendency to fall headlong into fallacy after fallacy.

It certainly seems that way.

I know the type.

[Alan Burns]

Gordon, Gordon, Gordon mate - you're trying to approach this using reason, and that's why it ain't gonna work. Alan is saying two entirely different, in fact contradictory things, so patently doesn't seem to know where he stands.

I have not contradicted myself at all.
I think you have just jumped to a hasty conclusion.

[Shaker]

I have not contradicted myself at all.
I think you have just jumped to a hasty conclusion.

I pointed it out in #7908.

[Gordon]

The power of the Holy Spirit.

How would you quantify this property, so that I would be able to recognise it if I ever encountered it?

[Alan Burns]

I pointed it out in #7908.

and I clarified it in #7927

[Shaker]

and I clarified it in #7927

A backtrack in the face of a blatant contradiction is hardly a qualification, Alan.

[Shaker]

How would you quantify this property, so that I would be able to recognise it if I ever encountered it?

Very interested in this also. In fact I'm practically agog.

[Alan Burns]

How would you quantify this property, so that I would be able to recognise it if I ever encountered it?

It is not measurable in physical terms, but there are many, many witnesses who can testify to the power of the Holy Spirit working in their lives.

[Shaker]

It is not measurable in physical terms, but there are many, many witnesses who can testify to the power of the Holy Spirit working in their lives.

Can we expect their names, addresses (including e-mail) and telephone numbers so that we can ask them ourselves rather than relying on your say-so? I seem to recall another example of your hand waving about alleged witnesses to an alleged miracle not so long ago. - you were as long on assertion and as short on detail as ever in that instance too.

[Alan Burns]

A backtrack in the face of a blatant contradiction is hardly a qualification, Alan.

I knew precisely what I was saying - I am sorry you misunderstood.

[Shaker]

I knew precisely what I was saying - I am sorry you misunderstood.

I didn't misunderstand it Alan - I simply read what you wrote, which was two contradictory statements.

Be interesting now to read what you haven't (yet) written, i.e. an answer to Gordon's question that isn't some vacuous slogan or airy-fairy assertion.

[Alan Burns]

Can we expect their names, addresses (including e-mail) and telephone numbers so that we can ask them ourselves rather than relying on your say-so? I seem to recall another example of your hand waving about alleged witnesses to an alleged miracle not so long ago. - you were as long on assertion and as short on detail as ever in that instance too.

You could start with reading a few of the hundreds of Christian witness books currently available -
Some of the more famous ones you might have heard of:
The Cross and the Switchblade
No Hiding Place
Chasing the Dragon

[Gordon]

and I clarified it in #7927

Where you said 'I said that everyone would benefit from becoming a Christian, including those who currently do better work than myself.'

So, since you concede that some non-Christians may well be 'better' (whatever that means) than some current Christians like you (who are presumably already 'better' than they would otherwise be if they were non-Christians) why is this God of yours not targeting those people who are already more altruistic (e.g. 'those who currently do better work than myself.') than any current Christians such as yourself?

I mean, if this were true, there should be no examples throughout history of atrocities committed by Christians - yet your own holy book contains examples: your thesis doesn't hang together very well, does it!

[Shaker]

You could start with reading a few of the hundreds of Christian witness books currently available -
Some of the more famous ones you might have heard of:
The Cross and the Switchblade
No Hiding Place
Chasing the Dragon

No, never heard of any of them.

So you seemingly want me to trust something just because it's written down - that might be your approach to everything, Alan, but it isn't mine. Do these books provide an answer to Gordon's question as per #7935?

[Shaker]

Where you said 'I said that everyone would benefit from becoming a Christian, including those who currently do better work than myself.'

So, since you concede that some non-Christians may well be 'better' (whatever that means) than some current Christians like you (who are presumably already 'better' than they would otherwise be if they were non-Christians) why is this God of yours not targeting those people who are already more altruistic (e.g. 'those who currently do better work than myself.') than any current Christians such as yourself?

I mean, if this were true, there should be no examples throughout history of atrocities committed by Christians - yet your own holy book contains examples: your thesis doesn't hang together very well, does it!

Who's had three Shredded Wheat this morning, then? 

[Gordon]

It is not measurable in physical terms, but there are many, many witnesses who can testify to the power of the Holy Spirit working in their lives.

Anecdotes, Alan - so how do you know (e.g. have knowledge) that these people aren't simply mistaken in attributing to this 'Holy Spirit' what is no more than a personal attribute of their, in that they would be altruistic anyway sans religion?

[Alan Burns]

No, never heard of any of them.

So you seemingly want me to trust something just because it's written down - that might be your approach to everything, Alan, but it isn't mine. Do these books provide an answer to Gordon's question as per #7935?

The three books I mentioned refer to verifiable hisorical events which took place in the lives of the three authors.

[Alan Burns]

Anecdotes, Alan - so how do you know (e.g. have knowledge) that these people aren't simply mistaken in attributing to this 'Holy Spirit' what is no more than a personal attribute of their, in that they would be altruistic anyway sans religion?

If you read the books you can judge for yourself whether they are mistaken

[Shaker]

The three books I mentioned refer to verifiable hisorical events which took place in the lives of the three authors.

But this is exactly and precisely what you have claimed before in relation to what you regard as the miraculous healing of a baby as allegedly related to you by the wife of somebody or other - and when pressed on details, suddenly found something more interesting to do somewhere else.

[Shaker]

If you read the books you can judge for yourself whether they are mistaken

And no doubt if one reads the books and decides these people are mistaken, one is being deceived by Satan, yes, Alan?

[Alan Burns]

Where you said 'I said that everyone would benefit from becoming a Christian, including those who currently do better work than myself.'

So, since you concede that some non-Christians may well be 'better' (whatever that means) than some current Christians like you (who are presumably already 'better' than they would otherwise be if they were non-Christians) why is this God of yours not targeting those people who are already more altruistic (e.g. 'those who currently do better work than myself.') than any current Christians such as yourself?

I mean, if this were true, there should be no examples throughout history of atrocities committed by Christians - yet your own holy book contains examples: your thesis doesn't hang together very well, does it!

All I am saying is that everyone would benefit from having the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives. But this will still not make them perfect.  Even the Pope still needs to go to confession!

[Gordon]

Who's had three Shredded Wheat this morning, then? 

In fact I've yet to have breakfast, since being retired there is no rush - think I'll have some Weetabix.

[Alan Burns]

But this is exactly and precisely what you have claimed before in relation to what you regard as the miraculous healing of a baby as allegedly related to you by the wife of somebody or other - and when pressed on details, suddenly found something more interesting to do somewhere else.

You will find plenty of detail in these books.

[Shaker]

All I am saying is that everyone would benefit from having the power of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

And for the third time of asking (at least), why? In what ways, specifically, would somebody benefit from this poorly (if that) defined, unevidenced, undemonstrated thing?

[Shaker]

You will find plenty of detail in these books.

They can be massively detailed, Alan - but is there any means of verifying those details? It's also very noticeable that you're dodging your own claim here; you claimed not tremendously long ago (I hope the relevant posts have survived a purge - I'll go looking for them later) that a baby underwent an allegedly miraculous healing at a well-known hospital (in London?) in quite recent years - perhaps no more than ten or fifteen years ago. This story was allegedly related to you by the wife of someone well-known I can't currently recall. The specifics - a particular hospital, a recent time-frame - made researching this story quite possible. And yet when pressed for details, as I say, you blobbed it.

Why was I not surprised by that, Alan?