Searching for GOD...

[Outrider]

I was lucky to be born into a Christian family, so I have had exposure to Christian literature and practices for most of my life.  Unlike many of my peer group, I embraced Christianity and started growing in my faith, particularly from my mid twenties.  As my interest in religion grew, I looked at other faiths but found them lacking the core foundation of my Christian faith which makes God the centre of my life.

I'm seeing a strong confession of confirmation bias, here, and nothing which really answers the question of how you would determine that your book has 'truth' in some way that the Qu'ran or the Adventures of Winnie the Pooh don't.

Throughout my spiritual journey, I constantly felt it was God calling me into an ever increasing relationship.  Like many fellow Christians I felt I was not actively seeking God, but was called by Him.  I believe the other religions are genuine efforts by humans to seek God, but my Christian faith came about by God seeking me.

And I genuinely hope that makes you happy. What it doesn't do, however, is justify your claim to truth.

O.

[Gordon]

If you read the books you can judge for yourself whether they are mistaken

Do you not think that to 'judge for yourself' might be unreliable, and especially so when dealing with claims made by other people and also your own abilities to 'judge' anything, since people (which includes Christians) are fallible: yes?

So, anecdote has limitations both as testimony and in terms of being amenable to scrutiny.

[Outrider]

Of course you do not need Christian faith to be of service to others, but it does help.

I'd go so far as to say that it CAN help, yes, but not that it automatically does. I don't doubt the sincerity of (at least some of) the pastors of the American megachurches, but I'd question to what degree they're helping anyone but themselves.

O.

[Shaker]

A good memory is often a blessing. It wasn't the wife of someone well known, it was the mother of someone well known - it was Eleanor Mumford of Vineyard Churches, mother of Marcus Mumford from dreadful pseudo-folkie outfit Mumford and Sons. She's the one supposed to have wtinessed this so-called miracle. It's coming back to me now.

[Outrider]

It is not measurable in physical terms, but there are many, many witnesses who can testify to the power of the Holy Spirit working in their lives.

There are many, many witnesses who can testify to the power of Allah working in their lives, or the Hindu gods working in their lives, or the Shinto spirits working in their lives... and no evidence to support any of them, and claims from at least some of them that directly contradict claims from Christians...

How are we supposed to tell which, if any, of these subjective claims are valid?

How do you justify the claim that your experience is actually from God, when others who make claims of a similar nature but different specifics make exactly the same claim about something different that you, presumably, do not believe are experiences from God?

O.

[torridon]

You could start with reading a few of the hundreds of Christian witness books currently available -
Some of the more famous ones you might have heard of:
The Cross and the Switchblade
No Hiding Place
Chasing the Dragon

I remember reading The Cross and the Switchblade and other Nicky Cruz stuff when I was a boy; all part of required supplementary (to the Bible) reading in my evangelical household. Since then I have come to recognise that life changing transformative experiences are not unique to the Christian faith, but happen in many contexts, not all of them religious at all. I guess that my path in life has not mirrored your path because you have perhaps instinctively narrowed and focussed your 'search' to find truth and enlightenment within that particular context, whereas I have always been oppositely inclined, to broaden out, to seek a bigger holistic picture that encompasses the experience of all peoples and all creatures.

[Alan Burns]

And for the third time of asking (at least), why? In what ways, specifically, would somebody benefit from this poorly (if that) defined, unevidenced, undemonstrated thing?

Quoting from the New Testament
The gifts of the Spirit are:
Wisdom
Understanding
Right Judgement
Courage
Knowledge
Reverence
Wonder and Awe
And from these we get the fruits of the Spirit which are:
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity.

[Shaker]

I remember reading The Cross and the Switchblade and other Nicky Cruz stuff when I was a boy; all part of required supplementary (to the Bible) reading in my evangelical household. Since then I have come to recognise that life changing transformative experiences are not unique to the Christian faith, but happen in many contexts, not all of them religious at all.

Indeed; and as much as it will grind Alan's gears (and he will undoubtedly cast wildly about trying to deny it somehow) some life-changing, transformative experiences involving giving up one religious tradition for another, or even abandoning (or being abandoned by, which is how many seem to describe it) religious belief altogether. I wouldn't normally specify individual members here but since they've related their own stories themselves quite openly on more than one occasion I don't think I'm betraying any confidences; just going by the membership of this forum alone, Rhiannon, Floo and Leonard James have all spoken of how their lives changed very much for the better when they cast off a prior religious adherence. They felt and feel better for it; not necessarily immediately, but certainly in the long run.

I guess that my path in life has not mirrored your path because you have perhaps instinctively narrowed and focussed your 'search' to find truth and enlightenment within that particular context, whereas I have always been oppositely inclined, to broaden out, to seek a bigger holistic picture that encompasses the experience of all peoples and all creatures.

This resonates very strongly with me. There's a short exchange on the Gideon Bible thread, where Michael Moore found a copy of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in his hotel drawer instead of the expected tome. That's a document explicitly predicated on inclusion; it speaks of the rights of all humanity regardless of sex, age, creed and colour, unlike the divisive, in-group-only strictures of many (not all) religions of which the monotheistic traditions are the worst offenders.

[Shaker]

Quoting from the New Testament
The gifts of the Spirit are:
Wisdom
Understanding
Right Judgement
Courage
Knowledge
Reverence
Wonder and Awe
And from these we get the fruits of the Spirit which are:
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity.

... every single last one of which can be had, are had, by people of other religious traditions and of absolutely no religion at all.

Furthermore, I'd certainly quibble with the concepts of modesty and chastity, which more often than not give every sign of being predicated on some extremely unhealthy, in fact downright obnoxious ideas about the body and about normal, healthy human sexual behaviour, with which Christianity in particular has always had enormous psychological problems.

[Rhiannon]

You know, reading the posts from the last day or so has brought home to me how truly fortunate I am to have lost my Christian faith. Nothing on earth would make me want to wish myself back there.

[Outrider]

Quoting from the New Testament
The gifts of the Spirit are:
Wisdom
Understanding
Right Judgement
Courage
Knowledge
Reverence
Wonder and Awe

Is there any reason to think, though, that these 'gifts' are actually in any way conveyed via belief in that specific version of religious claims? Is 'right judgment' akin to that demonstrated in the texts of the Christian church, in which case I have some reservations about the morality of them. How come, if 'knowledge' and 'wisdom' are amongst the benefits, there are so many religiously motivated reality deniers in the areas of evolution, human sexuality and gender and climate science?

And from these we get the fruits of the Spirit which are:
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity.

We see these fruits in many believers and non-believers, and we see a noticable absence of them in many believers and non-believers. Do you have anything to show there is any sort of correlation between belief in this particular set of tenets and these states? How do you define 'goodness'? To what degree are 'modesty' or 'chastity' desirable things?

O.

[Alan Burns]

You know, reading the posts from the last day or so has brought home to me how truly fortunate I am to have lost my Christian faith. Nothing on earth would make me want to wish myself back there.

And nothing on earth can take away the joy and peace I get from my relationship with God.

[Shaker]

And nothing on earth can take away the joy and peace I get from my relationship with God.

Well you say that Alan, but you're forgetting one thing. It's never happened to me as I never had any religious belief to lose in the first place, but I've read enough testimonies of those who have lost their religion who say that their beliefs abandoned them rather than vice versa, rather than it stemming from conscious and explicit abandonment on their part. Rhiannon has said this - have you never read her own accounts of how she prayed and in fact practically begged to hang on to a belief which nevertheless evaporated? And she's by far the better for it.

This is every bit as likely to happen to you as it did to Rhiannon, Alan. You are not immune. I know it suits your habitual arrogance to think of yourself as the one special little cupcake in the world whose faith is unshakeable, but you are not immune.

[Rhiannon]

Quoting from the New Testament
The gifts of the Spirit are:
Wisdom
Understanding
Right Judgement
Courage
Knowledge
Reverence
Wonder and Awe
And from these we get the fruits of the Spirit which are:
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, generosity, gentleness, faithfulness, modesty, self-control, chastity.

Plenty of Christians have thought 'right judgement' to justify torture, murder, the condemnation of homosexuals, single mothers... They have thought, and still think, that being loving is to tell a gay couple that God doesn't accept their love.

And Shaker's right; there's nothing joyful about the shame Christianity has always had around the body and around sex.

[Outrider]

And nothing on earth can take away the joy and peace I get from my relationship with God.

And here's the thing - I can't speak for anyone else directly, but I suspect much like me they wouldn't want to take away your sense of joy and peace, they just want you to get it from a less-divisive source.

Your particular interpretation of Christianity seems reasonable self-directed and peacable - by that, I mean you don't seem particularly interested on forcing it on anyone, or restricting anyone else's life by your practice of it. Others, however, are not so accommodating: not only the perennially laughable US politics, but (for instance) in the recent situation surrounding abortion provision in Northern Ireland.

As a non-believer, I presume you realise that I quite believe you find joy and peace in these ideas, but equally as I don't think the deity behind the ideas is real I presume that the joy and peace are your own work - we're all capable of that, and when we do it for ourselves we don't have a concrete set of tenets to try to enforce on anyone else.

If we don't have tenets to enforce, if we can stand by and say 'to each their own', we undermine the even more militant, radical religious outlooks we see causing bloodshed, pain, suffering and conflict in many regions around the world. It wouldn't remove strife and problems, but it would remove one of the motivations.

Your specific ideas appear to range from the harmless to the beneficial, but your methodology is the same as those methodologies that justify terrorism, homophobia, misogyny, racism, genocide, caste systems and intersect conflict.

O.

[Rhiannon]

Well you say that Alan, but you're forgetting one thing. It's never happened to me as I never had any religious belief to lose in the first place, but I've read enough testimonies of those who have lost their religion who say that their beliefs abandoned them rather than vice versa, rather than it stemming from conscious and explicit abandonment on their part. Rhiannon has said this - have you never read her own accounts of how she prayed and in fact practically begged to hang on to a belief which nevertheless evaporated? And she's by far the better for it.

This is every bit as likely to happen to you as it did to Rhiannon, Alan. You are not immune. I know it suits your habitual arrogance to think of yourself as the one special little cupcake in the world whose faith is unshakeable, but you are not immune.

It's hard to convey how relieved I am that I did lose my faith. 'Better for it' doesn't come close. Having a faith like Alan's is more troubling, not less; for all there's an illusion of certainty it's not a peaceful way to live with oneself.

[Maeght]

And nothing on earth can take away the joy and peace I get from my relationship with God.

That's good, each to their own.

[Shaker]

Your particular interpretation of Christianity seems reasonable self-directed and peacable - by that, I mean you don't seem particularly interested on forcing it on anyone, or restricting anyone else's life by your practice of it.

I agree up to a point, but the passive-aggressive aspect of it - the arrogance of saying that everybody would be better off with Jesus - is rebarbative. And behind the mask of nice-guy buddy-buddy Alan are some other repellent ideas, such as his belief that anyone who doesn't believe as he does is being blinded to The Truth™ by Satan.

[Alan Burns]

I'd certainly quibble with the concepts of modesty and chastity

There has been much discussion on these subjects relating the the Christian teachings which I would not like to drag up in this thread.

However there is much evidence to show that promiscuity is the root cause of many problems in modern society, and I firmly believe that a bit more modesty and chastity would lead to more happiness overall.

[Rhiannon]

I agree up to a point, but the passive-aggressive aspect of it - the arrogance of saying that everybody would be better off with Jesus - is rebarbative. And behind the mask of nice-guy buddy-buddy Alan are some other repellent ideas, such as his belief that anyone who doesn't believe as he does is being blinded to The Truth™ by Satan.

I agree. I'm happy that Alan has his happy place but it isn't where I want to be, nor would it make me a better person if I was. His assertions on what would make us better people - believing like Alan does - are arrogant and rude, even if he can't see it.

[Outrider]

I agree up to a point, but the passive-aggressive aspect of it - the arrogance of saying that everybody would be better off with Jesus - is rebarbative. And behind the mask of nice-guy buddy-buddy Alan are some other repellent ideas, such as his belief that anyone who doesn't believe as he does is being blinded to The Truth™ by Satan.

I don't see that as particularly malignant - certainly no more malignant than my belief that if people could just be critical when they review religious ideas they'd stop holding to them. I can see how that could be taken as an accusation that 'religious people are stupid' - hell, it's hard not to think that, sometimes, myself - but it's not about the capacity of people to reason, it's about the way they reason, about the precepts upon which they base their ideas, not their ability to work through them.

As to 'passive aggressive', I don't see how someone making their own case could come across as anything else: he believes this, he believes we'd be better off with Jesus. If he doesn't say that, what point is there coming here? We're here to see what other people's belief systems are - I don't agree with him, but I don't see any malice in his sharing that belief.

His only other option is to be bombastic and in-your-face about it, and I'm pretty sure neither of us thinks that's a better way.

O.

[torridon]

However there is much evidence to show that promiscuity is the root cause of many problems in modern society, and I firmly believe that a bit more modesty and chastity would lead to more happiness overall.

  

Where to start with that ?

[Shaker]

As to 'passive aggressive', I don't see how someone making their own case could come across as anything else: he believes this, he believes we'd be better off with Jesus. If he doesn't say that, what point is there coming here?

That remains yet another mystery, since it was only yesterday - possibly the day before, but very recently indeed - that he conceded that people cannot choose what they believe. He knows that his efforts (God-inspired, inevitably) are quite useless in persuading others to his worldview, so what indeed is his point in coming here?

His only other option is to be bombastic and in-your-face about it, and I'm pretty sure neither of us thinks that's a better way.

You say that as though he isn't already.

[Rhiannon]

There has been much discussion on these subjects relating the the Christian teachings which I would not like to drag up in this thread.

However there is much evidence to show that promiscuity is the root cause of many problems in modern society, and I firmly believe that a bit more modesty and chastity would lead to more happiness overall.

Promiscuity is not the opposite of chastity or modesty. And you need to provide the evidence that it is damaging, otherwise you just have an assertion to fit your beliefs. Again.

[Outrider]

However there is much evidence to show that promiscuity is the root cause of many problems in modern society, and I firmly believe that a bit more modesty and chastity would lead to more happiness overall.

Much like commentary on the 'drug war', it's difficult to clarify sometimes which problems are due to 'promiscuity' and which are due to people's attitudes towards sexual activity and deeming it to be 'promiscuity' - case in point the vast difference in attitude between men having a varied sexual past and women in the same situation.

Beyond that, though, there's the reality that there's a broad space between chastity and promiscuity in which it's perfectly fine to explore sexual activity, and the equally important understanding that what constitutes chastity or promiscuity varies from person to person.

O.