Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3898198 times)

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7700 on: January 08, 2016, 02:36:04 PM »
Was Jesus a better person than the rest of us? Some of the sayings and deeds attributed to the guy make him out to be far from perfect!

Whomever the 'real' Jesus might or might not have been, the idea of the 'Jesus on your shoulder' in this instance is the 'idealised overseer' that we could all have: it's the idea of trying to live up to our own best expectations. Christians might embody these in their idea of Jesus - and their ideas might well not concur with yours or mine - but that's not really the point that's being made, I think.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

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floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7701 on: January 08, 2016, 02:45:49 PM »
Whomever the 'real' Jesus might or might not have been, the idea of the 'Jesus on your shoulder' in this instance is the 'idealised overseer' that we could all have: it's the idea of trying to live up to our own best expectations. Christians might embody these in their idea of Jesus - and their ideas might well not concur with yours or mine - but that's not really the point that's being made, I think.

O.

I have no wish to have any mythical being on my shoulder. :o I make my own choices, I try to help others if I can, but I make one heck of a lot of mistakes too. However, I am me and if I was any different I wouldn't be me.

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7702 on: January 08, 2016, 03:04:02 PM »
Some people are so high on themselves that they would never change for the better, why? Cause in truth it's all about themselves, they brag of doing good for others, but that is done to puff themselves up.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7703 on: January 08, 2016, 03:13:46 PM »
Hopefully you can get to the stage where you do things out of love, rather than for any expectation of reward.  I get tremendous satisfaction out of doing things which are pleasing to other people and to God.  I do not do them out of expectation of a reward, but when rewards do come it is a bonus.

I was trying to be impersonal, sit down with a group and discuss altruism provided they are a good range of people from differing backgrounds I think there is only one answer for reward for or for as little as possible reward the non-religionists have it hands down, we're far closer the pure stuff than you lot'll ever be when it comes to altruism, point for discussion, what reward, or kind of reward is the non-religionist looking for when doing good deeds. (There would be no point discussing this with people that are only like yourself totally indoctrinated into your religion at an early age as you indicate you have been).

The one thing you keep forgetting about non-religious people such as myself, and there's nothing exceptional about me, other than here, where such strong beliefs, incredibly, still hang on and it fascinates me,  I have no need of or want of anything like the, foreign to me, beliefs you have.

I don't really see myself as an atheist, gods don't exist for me so why would not believe in something that doesn't exist anyway, if there's nothing there to not believe in why would I need to declare anything about, well, nothing?   

ippy
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 03:16:07 PM by ippy »

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7704 on: January 08, 2016, 03:22:36 PM »
Dear ippy,

Yes, wasn't there some kind of myth going round that gay people on the radio had there own language, sure I read or heard something like that ???

Our Leonard should know something about this, he was a TV superstar 8)

Gonnagle.

Was a superstar?

ippy

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7705 on: January 08, 2016, 03:26:32 PM »
Was a superstar?

ippy

He still is, imo, he can give us younglings a run for our money!  ;D

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7706 on: January 08, 2016, 03:40:08 PM »
AB,

Quote
Hopefully you can get to the stage where you do things out of love, rather than for any expectation of reward.  I get tremendous satisfaction out of doing things which are pleasing to other people and to God.  I do not do them out of expectation of a reward, but when rewards do come it is a bonus.

Try reading your post again. Your sense of "tremendous satisfaction" is your "reward". There are many studies that show endorphin "highs" when people act altruistically, and even studies that show different hormonal pleasure responses according to the type of altruism - giving money to charity, helping others with tasks etc.

To be truly altruistic in the sense you imply you'd have to do these things and feel either horrible or at most nothing at all after the event.

What you're actually describing is an evolutionary outcome of countless generations before you who thrived because of their greater tendency to generosity, to co-operation, to group solidarity etc. You can bolt "God" (or "Ra" or "Harry the Leprechaun" for that matter) onto that after the event if you want to, but you still experience altruism no differently from those with other gods entirely or with no gods at all.     
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 03:44:18 PM by bluehillside »
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God

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7707 on: January 08, 2016, 04:01:59 PM »
Thank you, Ippy. I remember them, of course, but I think I must have heard very few. After the war finished, I don't think I listened much to the wireless.

Hi Len

You can get MP3 CDs of just about the whole series (and its predecessor, Beyond Our Ken) very cheaply on Ebay and Amazon. Sometimes you get the impression that some episodes were recorded by listeners sticking a microphone in front of their wirelesses and taping them on old reel-to-reel recorders (probably on shortwave in the middle of the Congo jungle, by the sound of some of them).
I find the Julian and Sandy scenes highly amusing, but they are a reminder of the risky life many homosexuals had to lead up to that time, if they were at all overt in their 'gay' behaviour.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7708 on: January 08, 2016, 04:37:50 PM »
they should never say, I am a better person than you, rather they should be saying, how can I become a better person.

I fully agree.
We all have different gifts, different strengths and weaknesses.  We should never compare ourselves with others, but look to make the best use of what we have.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7709 on: January 08, 2016, 05:53:36 PM »

What you're actually describing is an evolutionary outcome of countless generations
Dare I describe this as "assertion"?

There were not exactly countless generations - there were a finite number.
And I do not see much historical evidence of altruism before the fairly recent evolutionary step of belief in some form of God.

So could the ability to invoke altruism have been given at the same time as the belief in God and afterlife?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7710 on: January 08, 2016, 06:14:31 PM »
AB,

Quote
Dare I describe this as "assertion"?

Not really. There's no reason to think that brain physiology has changed much over time, and that our close relations (ie, chimps) also have dopamine "highs" suggests that the reward response is embedded and pretty ancient.

(Forgive the tu quoque, but you of all people accusing someone else of assertion is a bit rich isn't it?) 

Quote
There were not exactly countless generations - there were a finite number.

No. At some point in our (or more likely a predecessor species') history the brain reward mechanism would not have been there, but it's impossible to know how many generations back through other species you'd have to go to find it.

Quote
And I do not see much historical evidence of altruism before the fairly recent evolutionary step of belief in some form of God.

Then you're not looking. Try reading Bill Hamilton for example - altruism long pre-dates belief in any gods (yours included) and it exists because social species that exhibit it - co-operation, group solidarity etc - do better than those that do not. 

Quote
So...

That "so" fails because, once again, your premise is manifestly false.

Quote
...could the ability to invoke altruism have been given at the same time as the belief in God and afterlife?

Anything "could be", but no - altruism is much more ancient than that. We do it, chimps do it, elephants do it, even vampire bats do it (not sure about educated fleas though) and only one of that group believes in gods.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 06:21:03 PM by bluehillside »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7711 on: January 08, 2016, 06:20:31 PM »
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7712 on: January 08, 2016, 06:38:23 PM »
Hi Len

You can get MP3 CDs of just about the whole series (and its predecessor, Beyond Our Ken) very cheaply on Ebay and Amazon. Sometimes you get the impression that some episodes were recorded by listeners sticking a microphone in front of their wirelesses and taping them on old reel-to-reel recorders (probably on shortwave in the middle of the Congo jungle, by the sound of some of them).
I find the Julian and Sandy scenes highly amusing, but they are a reminder of the risky life many homosexuals had to lead up to that time, if they were at all overt in their 'gay' behaviour.

Free on YouTube.

ippy.

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7713 on: January 08, 2016, 07:58:16 PM »
Dear Shaker,

This doing good nonsense, I think that Christianity is ( or should be ) a very inward looking religion, a check and balance religion, a Christian should always be practising, practise makes perfect, not pointing the finger, they should never say, I am a better person than you, rather they should be saying, how can I become a better person.

Alan is halfway right, a good Christian, a practising Christian has Jesus constantly on his/her shoulder, of course Christians are human just like atheists.

Gonnagle.

Except that atheists don't need Jesus on their shoulder to live good lives.  :)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7714 on: January 08, 2016, 09:13:44 PM »
Except that atheists don't need Jesus on their shoulder to live good lives.  :)
But we still need Jesus' help to get to heaven, our true home. :)
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7715 on: January 08, 2016, 09:20:20 PM »
But we still need Jesus' help to get to heaven, our true home. :)

Oh dear, Alan ... what nonsense you do believe! ;D

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7716 on: January 08, 2016, 09:29:16 PM »
But we still need Jesus' help to get to heaven, our true home. :)
Which is an implicit statement that Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, pagans, indeed atheists (you're contradicting what your Pope has said here) don't go to heaven. Yes or no Alan?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7717 on: January 08, 2016, 11:53:03 PM »
Which is an implicit statement that Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, pagans, indeed atheists (you're contradicting what your Pope has said here) don't go to heaven. Yes or no Alan?
"I am the way, the truth and the life says the Lord.  No one can come to the Father except through me"
This is not a club to hit out at other religions, but a simple statement of why Jesus lived, died and was resurrected.  It is through the power of Jesus that good people will enter heaven.  It does not exclude people of other faiths, or even no faith, but it will certainly help if you can accept Jesus as your saviour.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 09:08:57 AM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7718 on: January 09, 2016, 12:34:47 AM »
"I am the way, the truth and the life says the Lord.  No one can come to the Father except through me"
This is not a club to hit out at other religions, but a simple statement of why Jesus lived, died and was resurrected.  It is the through power of Jesus that good people will enter heaven.  It does not exclude people of other faiths, or even no faith, but it will certainly help if you can accept Jesus as your saviour.

Assertion, assertion, assertion, from an unproven source, an unlikely to be proven source as well.

As good an example of childhood indoctrination as I've ever seen, shame and it's not like it's a sensible thing to come out with, I was going to say "idea" in place of thing, but it's not even an idea of your own Alan, thus not a sensible thing to come out with, just an implant.

ippy

« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 03:54:05 PM by ippy »

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7719 on: January 09, 2016, 09:50:32 AM »
Dear Leonard,

Quote
Except that atheists don't need Jesus on their shoulder to live good lives.

Aye!! and this fascinate me, you old friend are a excellent example, you often use Biblical quotations as throw aways, but then you are not alone, other atheists on this forum have been known to dip into the Bible for a odd quote or three.

Then we have Vlads pin up boy, Dawkins, he regards himself as a cultural Christian, just wondering how many more atheists on this forum regard themselves as "cultural Christians".

Our Gordon, our very valued Mod, now he has never had God in his life, although when I think about it, he has, hard to escape us Bible bashers when you live on the west coast of Scotland, wonder if Gordon thinks of himself as a "cultural Christian".

This opens up all sorts of other thoughts in my very cluttered mind, walking away from religious thought, does that leave some kind of void?

Taking religion out of schools, in this country, Scotland, there is a push on to ensure our kids are well schooled in the three R's, where is the push to ensure our kids are well schooled in, Love, Charity, serving our fellow man, just as important as the three R's, more important, in fact they should be on equal footing.

On the subject of charity, Church of Scotland, England, Ireland, Wales, Salvation Army, Barnado's, the atheist is quite happy for these institutions to deal with our down trodden but will rail against religious privilege, our own government gives these institutions tax payers money to deal with this countries ill's, something is out of kilter here when it comes to atheist thinking.

Anyway Leonard that is my little rantette for today, time for breakfast, square sausage, tottie scone, egg, what are your thoughts on the humble tomato, fried tin tomato or fried fresh tomato :P

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Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7720 on: January 09, 2016, 10:57:35 AM »
Dear Leonard,

Aye!! and this fascinate me, you old friend are a excellent example, you often use Biblical quotations as throw aways, but then you are not alone, other atheists on this forum have been known to dip into the Bible for a odd quote or three.

Well, none of us can deny that the Bible contains much good advice on how to live ... it's not ALL fantasy!

Quote
Then we have Vlads pin up boy, Dawkins, he regards himself as a cultural Christian, just wondering how many more atheists on this forum regard themselves as "cultural Christians".

I think most of us older ones were brought up as Christians, since that was the religion of our country.

Quote
Our Gordon, our very valued Mod, now he has never had God in his life, although when I think about it, he has, hard to escape us Bible bashers when you live on the west coast of Scotland, wonder if Gordon thinks of himself as a "cultural Christian".

I don't think we regard ourselves as Christians of any sort, at least not those of us who have managed to shake off the yoke we were lumbered with as kids.

Quote
This opens up all sorts of other thoughts in my very cluttered mind, walking away from religious thought, does that leave some kind of void?

I confess that when it happened to me, I was very disorientated for quite a while. But common sense and reasoned thought brought me to the conclusion that I had been misled, albeit unintentionally, by my family. From then on, everything became much clearer.

Quote
Taking religion out of schools, in this country, Scotland, there is a push on to ensure our kids are well schooled in the three R's, where is the push to ensure our kids are well schooled in, Love, Charity, serving our fellow man, just as important as the three R's, more important, in fact they should be on equal footing.

Here in Spain, the kids have to study how to be a good citizen, and those things are all part of the subject. Don't you have some equivalent in the UK?

Quote
On the subject of charity, Church of Scotland, England, Ireland, Wales, Salvation Army, Barnado's, the atheist is quite happy for these institutions to deal with our down trodden but will rail against religious privilege, our own government gives these institutions tax payers money to deal with this countries ill's, something is out of kilter here when it comes to atheist thinking.

Well I think public money should certainly be given to the needy.

Quote
Anyway Leonard that is my little rantette for today, time for breakfast, square sausage, tottie scone, egg, what are your thoughts on the humble tomato, fried tin tomato or fried fresh tomato :P

Gonnagle.

I like tomatoes any way at all, my only beef with them is that nowadays they seem much harder than when I was younger ... but maybe it's just that my jaws are too weak for anything tougher tnan suet ... to quote Father William!  :)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 11:14:08 AM by Leonard James »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7721 on: January 09, 2016, 11:03:52 AM »
Assertion, assertion, assertion, from an unproven sourse, an unlikely to be proven sourse as well.

As good an example of childhood indoctrination as I've ever seen, shame and it's not like it's a sensible thing to come out with, I was going to say "idea" in place of thing, but it's not even an idea of your own Alan, thus not a sensible thing to come out with, just an implant.

ippy
Ippy? Accusing someone of mere assertion? whatever next?

By the way Ippy...It is not ''Proven sourse''.........but ''Proven sauce''......Happy to put you straight.

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7722 on: January 09, 2016, 11:09:46 AM »
Dear Leonard,

Quote
Well, none of us can deny that the Bible contains much good advice on how to live ... it's not ALL fantasy!


Hold that thought old son, in fact, I will be right back, just got to change something. ;)

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Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7723 on: January 09, 2016, 11:44:34 AM »
Dear Leonard,

Quote
I don't think we regard ourselves as Christians of any sort, at least not those of us who have managed to shake off the yoke we were lumbered with as kids.

Yes but I think I can still use the term "cultural Christian" as in you and other atheists on this forum will, from memory, quote Biblical scripture.

Quote
I confess that when it happened to me, I was very disorientated for quite a while. But common sense and reasoned thought brought me to the conclusion that I had been misled, albeit unintentionally, by my family. From then on, everything became much clearer.

Yes trying to get atheists to open up about their personal experiences regarding walking away ( insert whatever description you like ) from their faith is like pulling teeth, so many questions to ask.

Why not consider another religion?

What was it that definitively changed your mind, the science, religion was uncool, the silly stuff your particular faith spouts, the argument regarding a loving God, the cruelty in nature, injustice in the world.

Quote
Here in Spain, the kids have to study how to be a good citizen, and those things are all part of the subject. Don't you have some equivalent in the UK?

Very good question, hopefully someone on the forum can answer this.

Quote
Well I think public money should certainly be given to the needy.

Yes but given to Christian charities so that they can do what I think the government should be doing, which is why I think atheist thinking regarding Christian privilege is slightly skewed.

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Leonard James

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7724 on: January 09, 2016, 12:05:27 PM »


Why not consider another religion?

I didn't feel any need to.

Quote
What was it that definitively changed your mind, the science, religion was uncool, the silly stuff your particular faith spouts, the argument regarding a loving God, the cruelty in nature, injustice in the world.

Yes, all of that.

Quote
Yes but given to Christian charities so that they can do what I think the government should be doing, which is why I think atheist thinking regarding Christian privilege is slightly skewed.

Given to any charity that is prepared to make its doings public, so that it can be inspected for any fault or favour.