Searching for GOD...

[jeremyp]

But to understand the New Testament, you need to know that God is real.

No, to understand the New Testament, you need to know that God exists only in the imagination of the people that wrote it and believed in it.

Which of us is right? Do you have any evidence that your perspective is correct and mine is not? I can show you lots of evidence that my perspective is correct.

[Leonard James]

Well so far in my life (and I hope it stays that way), neurosurgeons have had absolutely no importance to my well-being.

Whereas dustmen have been very important to your well-being!

Both professions contribute to modern human well-being, but I think it is fair to say that the disappearance of refuse disposal workers would affect negatively the lives of far more people than the disappearance of neurosurgeons.

[Alan Burns]

Whereas dustmen have been very important to your well-being!

Both professions contribute to modern human well-being, but I think it is fair to say that the disappearance of refuse disposal workers would affect negatively the lives of far more people than the disappearance of neurosurgeons.

I agree Len.  It is fortunate that God has blessed us all with different gifts, abilities and ambitions.  I would hate to live in a world where humans were able to choose their own attributes - imagine a world full of adonis neurosurgeons 

[Alan Burns]

No, to understand the New Testament, you need to know that God exists only in the imagination of the people that wrote it and believed in it.

You may well understand the immediate meaning of the written words, but not their implication.

[Leonard James]

I agree Len.  It is fortunate that God has blessed us all with different gifts, abilities and ambitions.  I would hate to live in a world where humans were able to choose their own attributes - imagine a world full of adonis neurosurgeons 

As usual I have to differ, Alan! 

Evolution is the natural process which makes us all different in our abilities ... but not many people are able to perceive that none of us is more important than the next man, and must be treated with equal respect.

Which is not to say that we don't need our man-made code of morals, of course!

ps. I will not deny that a world full of adonises holds a certain attraction for me! 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Alan,

You may well understand the immediate meaning of the written words, but not their implication.

Yes, on the subject of reading Scripture, I think you are halfway there when you say we need to believe in God, it needs to be somehow important to you, if it does not resonate with you, if it does not make you think then it just becomes words on a page.

Funny but this makes me think about the poster Dyslexic again, he once said ( sure it was him ) that the majority of the Bible was just poetry, I never fully understood what he was trying to say.

I do remember that his thoughts would send me to my favourite part of the Bible and I kind of understood what he was talking about, Corinthians Book 1 Verse 13, now that is poetry

13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Gonnagle.

[Alan Burns]

People who don't harbour doubts have already lost the plot.  Doubt is part of the human condition, none of us are omniscient, we all need to recognise that we can and do get things wrong. A mind without doubts is a closed mind.

I do not think I have ever doubted God's existence, but I have questioned many things about God - some I have answers to, however I have to concede that there are many questions left unanswered.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

But to understand the New Testament, you need to know that God is real.

Do you know what "circular reasoning" means?

Here's an example: "God is real because the NT tells me so/to understand the NT you need to believe in God/God is real because the NT says so/to understand the NT...." etc and endlessly etc.

 

[Alan Burns]

Corinthians Book 1 Verse 13, now that is poetry

Gonnagle.

The full impact of this bit of scripture hit me when it was read during a routine service when I was in my late teens.  Those words have resonated ever since.

Another profound line is the opening to John's Gospel "In the begining was the Word".  What is in a Word?  - meaning, will, desire but nothing definable in material terms, yet powerful enough to bring the universe into existence.

[Alan Burns]

AB,

Do you know what "circular reasoning" means?

Here's an example: "God is real because the NT tells me so/to understand the NT you need to believe in God/God is real because the NT says so/to understand the NT...." etc and endlessly etc.

But human beings were aware of God's existence before the NT was written. 

[Alan Burns]

Humans created the deity, not the other way around, imo!

Just think about that word "created".  Could any form of creation exist without the (spiritual) power of conscious free will to drive the process?

[BeRational]

Just think about that word "created".  Could any form of creation exist without the (spiritual) power of conscious free will to drive the process?

We don't know.

What created your god?

[Gonnagle]

Dear Alan,

Another profound line is the opening to John's Gospel "In the begining was the Word".  What is in a Word?  - meaning, will, desire but nothing definable in material terms, yet powerful enough to bring the universe into existence.

You're not wrong old son.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcomea it.

Poetry again.

Gonnagle.

[ippy]

I do not think I have ever doubted God's existence, but I have questioned many things about God - some I have answers to, however I have to concede that there are many questions left unanswered.

Nothing like a bit of fantasy, your kind of fantasy only worries me when I see you and yours trying to infect innocent young children with it, you're a lost cause anyway, so at least try to have the decency to leave the very young innocent children out of it.

Most children acquire the ability to challenge ideas at around the age of seven, as if you religionists didn't know.

ippy

[ippy]

Dear Alan,

You're not wrong old son.

Poetry again.

Gonnagle.

Is there any chance you can tell us all how you know that Alan's not wrong Gonners, when he offers the following as an explanation of how everything started?

Another profound line is the opening to John's Gospel "In the begining was the Word".  What is in a Word?  - meaning, will, desire but nothing definable in material terms, yet powerful enough to bring the universe into existence.

ippy

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

But human beings were aware of God's existence before the NT was written.

You've missed it. You cannot just argue that "God is real because the NT says so" and then that you need to believe in this god first to understand the NT. If you want to extend your claim that you need to believe in your god to understand the OT too, that just adds to your problem.

Oh, and by "aware" you mean "believed in", and by "God" you mean any of the countless supernatural explanations ancient tribal peoples reached for to explain the otherwise inexplicable - why the sun "rose" in the morning for example. 

[Leonard James]

Just think about that word "created".  Could any form of creation exist without the (spiritual) power of conscious free will to drive the process?

A better word than 'created' is invented, in this case. When authors write book they invent the stories and the characters in them, and that is just what the scripture writers did when they wrote the Bible.

You don't need to be a spiritual person to make up a story ... kids do it all the time to get themselves out of trouble.

The authors of the Bible included some historical events and places to make it appear more real, and of course added the phrases saying that "God" was guiding their thoughts. They outcome was a clever trap for the unwary.

[Gonnagle]

Dear ippy,

Is there any chance you can tell us all how you know that Alan's not wrong Gonners, when he offers the following as an explanation of how everything started?

In very simplistic terms, one Christian chewing the fat with another Christian.

We may be very different Christians, Christians come in many flavours, but I understand when he mentions John 1:1, it probably means nothing to you, but it resonates with me, Christian thing, and yes we are a very weird lot.

Gonnagle.

[Alan Burns]

Nothing like a bit of fantasy, your kind of fantasy only worries me when I see you and yours trying to infect innocent young children with it, you're a lost cause anyway, so at least try to have the decency to leave the very young innocent children out of it.

Most children acquire the ability to challenge ideas at around the age of seven, as if you religionists didn't know.

ippy

But this "infection" as you call it has defined much of the civilised society we live in today.   Is there any alternative society without a Christian heritage where you would prefer to live?  Or try to imagine what sort of society our inherently self centred human ancestors would have developed without the contraints of Christian teachings and morality?  Would the summit of human entertainment be the modern equivalent of the gory spectacles performed in the colliseum in Rome?

[Alan Burns]

Oh, and by "aware" you mean "believed in", and by "God" you mean any of the countless supernatural explanations ancient tribal peoples reached for to explain the otherwise inexplicable - why the sun "rose" in the morning for example.

As Pontius Pilate said:

So the chief priests of the Jews were saying to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews'; but that He said, 'I am King of the Jews.'" Pilate answered, "What I have written I have written."  John 19:21-22

[SusanDoris]

A daily look at this thread to  catch up is always very interesting and I'll certainly miss it if it comes to an end! But, you know, after a few of Alan's posts, I begin to feel that woolly fluff creeping up on me  and either have to skip them and just concentrate on clear responses, or step out into the real world outside my front door!



ETA: As you may recall, AB, I listened to the NT straight through (o ver a few days) some years ago, and I can assure you that doing that significantly reduces the apparent specialness of John's Gospel!

[Leonard James]

A daily look at this thread to  catch up is always very interesting and I'll certainly miss it if it comes to an end! But, you know, after a few of Alan's posts, I begin to feel that woolly fluff creeping up on me  and either have to skip them and just concentrate on clear responses, or step out into the real world outside my front door!

I'm with you, Susan! I wish I had the strength of mind to give it all a miss! 

[Gonnagle]

Dear Alan,

But this "infection" as you call it has defined much of the civilised society we live in today.   Is there any alternative society without a Christian heritage where you would prefer to live?  Or try to imagine what sort of society our inherently self centred human ancestors would have developed without the contraints of Christian teachings and morality?  Would the summit of human entertainment be the modern equivalent of the gory spectacles performed in the colliseum in Rome?

Are you saying without Christianity we would still be throwing people to the lions.

Bold!! heroic!! or just plain crazy.

Gonnagle.

[SusanDoris]

I'm with you, Susan! I wish I had the strength of mind to give it all a miss! 

No, no, that you can't do! I wouldn't be able to read what you say then!

I had another TIA last week - I wonder how many TIAs add up to a final something?!  fortunately I'm very fit otherwise.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Susan and Leonard,

Go on admit it, you love us Christian types, your guilty secret.

Gonnagle.