Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

But the suffering of innocents is the dark thread, which is blended by God with the silver and gold threads of life, to make pretty tapestries.   So that's all right, if your child dies, or you get seriously ill, or a few thousand people are killed in the Middle East - it's all part of God's tapestry.   Ain't it grand?

In the truly inspired book of Job, it is not God, who plagues Job's life.

[Rhiannon]

But the suffering of innocents is the dark thread, which is blended by God with the silver and gold threads of life, to make pretty tapestries.   So that's all right, if your child dies, or you get seriously ill, or a few thousand people are killed in the Middle East - it's all part of God's tapestry.   Ain't it grand?

Well, grand's one word for it, Wiggs.

[ad_orientem]

But the suffering of innocents is the dark thread, which is blended by God with the silver and gold threads of life, to make pretty tapestries.   So that's all right, if your child dies, or you get seriously ill, or a few thousand people are killed in the Middle East - it's all part of God's tapestry.   Ain't it grand?

I think in your sarcasm you unintentionally hit near the mark. We don't understand the tapestry, as you call it, and so it's very difficult to make sense of it, especially suffering. In the end, however, I believe we will all understand and think "Oh, that's what is was" and "Glory to God for all things". Of course, to the unbeliever this is the great scandal.

[Rhiannon]

In the truly inspired book of Job, it is not God, who plagues Job's life.

That's ducking the question.

[Nearly Sane]

That's ducking the question.

It's also wrong, the god of Job is a nightmarish knave

[Rhiannon]

It's also wrong, the god of Job is a nightmarish knave

Only because Satan tells him to be. Tempts everyone, that pesky chap.

[ippy]

Of course I have thought very deeply, which is why I am convinced that I could not possibly exist if God does not exist, and having faith in God's existence has led me to ever deeper Christian faith.

By by Alan.

ippy

[Shaker]

I think in your sarcasm you unintentionally hit near the mark. We don't understand the tapestry, as you call it, and so it's very difficult to make sense of it, especially suffering. In the end, however, I believe we will all understand and think "Oh, that's what is was" and "Glory to God for all things". Of course, to the unbeliever this is the great scandal.

Ah yes, this is the "Stub out a cigarette on your child's arm, buy them an ice cream afterwards to make up for it" school of theism, isn't it.

[Alan Burns]

It is very short sighted to use the presence of evil and suffering to prove God's non existence.  God does not promise to end evil and suffering in this world, but He does say He will give us the strength to endure whatever comes, and that we will not be pushed beyond this endurance if we put our faith and trust in Him.  And we are told there will be no more suffering in Heaven.  God came in order that we could be saved.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But the suffering of innocents is the dark thread, which is blended by God with the silver and gold threads of life, to make pretty tapestries.   So that's all right, if your child dies, or you get seriously ill, or a few thousand people are killed in the Middle East - it's all part of God's tapestry.   Ain't it grand?

What a sickenly sentimental piece designed for the support of human egos...............Don't you know the difference between natural causes and human, greed, and stupidity.

Somebody lied lately about me revelling or belittling the suffering of people. I don't....but if someone takes their pain for ever afterwards out on people who take a different view from their antitheism then it's them who have the problem.

Bollocks to your Good bloke, bad god hypothesis.

[Shaker]

It is very short sighted to use the presence of evil and suffering to prove God's non existence. God does not promise to end evil and suffering in this world

Then what bloody use is he?

but He does say He will give us the strength to endure whatever comes, and that we will not be pushed beyond this endurance if we put our faith and trust in Him.

So why does exactly that happen?

And we are told there will be no more suffering in Heaven.

We're also told about talking donkeys, and I don't mean Shrek. Could we have something a little more concrete perchance?

[Shaker]

What a sickenly sentimental piece designed for the support of human egos...............Don't you know the difference between natural causes and human, greed, and stupidity.

According to you and your ilk, your god is proximately or ultimately responsible for both, right?

[Nearly Sane]

It is very short sighted to use the presence of evil and suffering to prove God's non existence.  God does not promise to end evil and suffering in this world, but He does say He will give us the strength to endure whatever comes, and that we will not be pushed beyond this endurance if we put our faith and trust in Him.  And we are told there will be no more suffering in Heaven.  God came in order that we could be saved.

Except no one is using it to prove your God's non existence. Rather they are wondering how the god you go on about with all that live makes any sense. It's the logic of your statements that is being challenged and that you are unable to understand that, why your attempts at answering isn't even wrong.

[Rhiannon]

It is very short sighted to use the presence of evil and suffering to prove God's non existence.  God does not promise to end evil and suffering in this world, but He does say He will give us the strength to endure whatever comes, and that we will not be pushed beyond this endurance if we put our faith and trust in Him.  And we are told there will be no more suffering in Heaven.  God came in order that we could be saved.

Don't you see that what you are claiming is that God came to save us from something he could prevent but doesn't? Ultimately God is saving us from his own actions and/or inaction.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

According to you and your ilk, your god is proximately or ultimately responsible for both, right?

No........ humans are responsible for evil.....

[Shaker]

No........ humans are responsible for evil.....

Your kind assert that your god is responsible for humans, therefore your god is ultimately responsible for evil.

If I am an engineer and create a machine (such as a car) which I know is faulty enough to cause deaths and deliberately, knowingly and with malice or apathy aforethought release said machine into the general population, and said machine causes X number of deaths, I am not proximately responsible for those deaths but I am certainly ultimately responsible.

Besides which your book says otherwise to you. Is the book wrong or are you?

[Rhiannon]

Your kind assert that your god is responsible for humans, therefore your god is ultimately responsible for evil.

Besides which your book says otherwise. Is the book wrong or are you?

Vlad also seems to think evil and stupidity are the same thing.

[Gordon]

It is very short sighted to use the presence of evil and suffering to prove God's non existence. 

Why exactly do you claim this?

The 'Problem of Evil' isn't a negative proof fallacy: it is a argument against there being an interventionist all-good God, since even if suffering was essential so as to allow scope for love and compassion etc to occur there would surely be no more suffering than was essential - unfortunately the prey/predator system has been around long before we appeared, and I'm not convinced that a truly good and loving God needs to still allow, for instance, cases of bone cancer in children.

So, since the above examples are reality, where then is your God: unless of course your God has the inclination to allow the suffering of children, which seems to be the case for those who claim that God exists! Alternatively, the 'good God' notion can be seen as being a primitive superstition that is based on fallacious reasoning, which is my view.

[ad_orientem]

Oh I most certainly do think we have to say that God allows, in ths world at least, evil to happen, otherwise it just wouldn't happen, that is if we confess God to be almighty. Of course that doesn't answer to problem of evil. In the end we just have to trust God that it all works to a better end, even though we don't yet see it.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Your kind assert that your god is responsible for humans, therefore your god is ultimately responsible for evil.

Besides which your book says otherwise. Is the book wrong or are you?

No humans sin and we see the results. That is what the Book says.

You are viewing the Human as a mechanism. It sins therefore it must be built to sin. That is not a biblical model. Mankind starts unsullied and in fellowship with God and then sullies itself in an act we all repeat.

[Shaker]

No humans sin and we see the results. That is what the Book says.

The book says that God creates evil. Perhaps you haven't read that bit?

[Shaker]

Oh I most certainly do think we have to say that God allows, in ths world at least, evil to happen

Is that because:

     - he wants to stop it but can't;

     - he doesn't know about it; or

     - he knows about it but doesn't care about about stopping it?

[Shaker]

Vlad also seems to think evil and stupidity are the same thing.

I don't - Vlad isn't evil.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Is that because:

     - he wants to stop it but can't;

     - he doesn't know about it; or

     - he knows about it but doesn't care about about stopping it?

Ah but you have some power to stop evil people Shaker why do you allow it?

[Shaker]

Ah but you have some power to stop evil people Shaker why do you allow it?

What powers do I possess to stop evil people, Vlad?