Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3897410 times)

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7875 on: January 11, 2016, 08:09:19 PM »
No humans sin and we see the results. That is what the Book says.

You are viewing the Human as a mechanism. It sins therefore it must be built to sin. That is not a biblical model. Mankind starts unsullied and in fellowship with God and then sullies itself in an act we all repeat.

Because of Eve, a talking snake and a piece of fruit?

ad_orientem

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7876 on: January 11, 2016, 08:09:39 PM »
Is that because:

     - he wants to stop it but can't;

     - he doesn't know about it; or

     - he knows about it but doesn't care about about stopping it?

I answered the first two. As for the third, it comes down to trust, that in the end it works to a good end.
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7877 on: January 11, 2016, 08:09:50 PM »
Because of Eve, a talking snake and a piece of fruit?
Sound like a daft old fairy tale to me.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7878 on: January 11, 2016, 08:11:32 PM »
I answered the first two.
Where?
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As for the third, it comes down to trust, that in the end it works to a good end.
So I was right in what I said in #8173, then:

Quote from: Shaker
Ah yes, this is the "Stub out a cigarette on your child's arm, buy them an ice cream afterwards to make up for it" school of theism, isn't it.

I doubt you'd accept that in a real parent - at least, I hope you wouldn't, but there's no telling with you. It's only when it comes to gods that you switch off your brain and all and any moral sense, something that seems to be endemic in theists I might add.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 08:20:03 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7879 on: January 11, 2016, 08:12:40 PM »
The book says that God creates evil. Perhaps you haven't read that bit?
I think there is a problem with translations herewith the word evil.

That's what the word sin is for. It delineates natural or divine 'ills' from human evil.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7880 on: January 11, 2016, 08:17:50 PM »
What powers do I possess to stop evil people, Vlad?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7881 on: January 11, 2016, 08:18:06 PM »
Because of Eve, a talking snake and a piece of fruit?
I am not a biblical literalist and get an allegorical reading but I'm sure that somewhere, sometime a human, and therefore sentimentally honoured by secular humanists and the like for being a good bloke......has killed for less than a piece of fruit.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7882 on: January 11, 2016, 08:21:02 PM »
What powers do I possess to stop evil people, Vlad?
I think you know that to which I am alluding and we know why thence you do not stop evil people Shakes.......and that is the line God takes.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7883 on: January 11, 2016, 08:21:52 PM »
I am not a biblical literalist and get an allegorical reading but I'm sure that somewhere, sometime a human, and therefore sentimentally honoured by secular humanists and the like for being a good bloke......has killed for less than a piece of fruit.

An allegory for what? What was it that made the 'unsullied' relationship between humanity and God 'fallen'? What caused it?

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7884 on: January 11, 2016, 08:23:11 PM »
I think you know that to which I am alluding
No, I don't. I haven't the faintest idea to what you are alluding. That's why I'm asking the question. Are you capable of answering the question without further bluster and evasion or are you not?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 08:25:43 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7885 on: January 11, 2016, 08:25:34 PM »
No, I don't. That's why I'm asking. Are you capable of answering the question or are you not?

I have. You just have to use your loaf and think about it a bit Shaker. In other words stop being such a DF.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7886 on: January 11, 2016, 08:26:04 PM »
I think you know that to which I am alluding and we know why thence you do not stop evil people Shakes.......and that is the line God takes.

Grasshopper - you speak in riddles: your point is what, exactly?

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7887 on: January 11, 2016, 08:26:35 PM »
I have. You just have to use your loaf and think about it a bit Shaker. In other words stop being such a DF.
Right, so we've established that you in fact cannot answer the question. Thanks for making this typically useless exchange at least shorter than it would otherwise have been and for wasting less time than otherwise.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ad_orientem

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7888 on: January 11, 2016, 08:29:04 PM »
Where?So I was right in what I said in #8173, then:

I doubt you'd accept that in a real parent - at least, I hope you wouldn't, but there's no telling with you. It's only when it comes to gods that you switch off your brain and all and any moral sense, something that seems to be endemic in theists I might add.

Where? In the post before. I said that we have to say God allows evil to happen in this world, for if we confess him to be almighty, which we do, then it wouldn't exist did he not allow it to.
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7889 on: January 11, 2016, 08:30:10 PM »
Where? In the post before. I said that we have to say God allows evil to happen in this world, for if we confess him to be almighty, which we do, then it wouldn't exist did he not allow it to.
So you consider a being good who explicitly allows evil on the sort of scale and of the kinds with which we're all familiar.

Speaks volumes.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ad_orientem

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7890 on: January 11, 2016, 08:35:21 PM »
So you consider a being good who explicitly allows evil on the sort of scale and of the kinds with which we're all familiar.

Speaks volumes.

And as I said, this is where trust comes in, that it all works to a greater and better end. This is where the resurrection comes in. It is the proof, the resurrected Christ, the firstborn of a new creation.
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7891 on: January 11, 2016, 08:36:15 PM »
And as I said, this is where trust comes in, that it all works to a greater and better end. This is where the resurrection comes in. It is the proof.
No it isn't, because there's no proof of any "resurrection." That's a belief - I do wish you lot would learn the difference between your beliefs and reality.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

ad_orientem

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7892 on: January 11, 2016, 08:43:08 PM »
No it isn't, because there's no proof of any "resurrection." That's a belief - I do wish you lot would learn the difference between your beliefs and reality.

The proof can be found within the life of the Church.
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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7893 on: January 11, 2016, 08:47:33 PM »
The proof can be found within the life of the Church.
No it can't. "The Church" is merely a collective name for a body of people over a long period of time who have held a particular belief, that's all.

That's proof of human credulity, nothing more.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7894 on: January 11, 2016, 08:54:25 PM »
What ways, and do they still affect you.

It's difficult to say. Directly, primarily, the New Testament bored me, church bored me. Indirectly, it's virtually impossible to pull out of the cultural mix which bits are morals that Christianity has adopted, which bits are culturally British that have been imprinted on the church, and which are the bits in between and bits from other cultures and religions... It's like trying to define what being 'British' means...

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Well it was Outrider who used the word mechanism, just thought a atheist, any atheist had a definitive mechanism, mine is Christianity but I will search out other philosophies and religions which inspire me.

Atheism just means that what you have isn't necessarily the Gospels - for me, personally, it's a mixture of 'least harm' and 'personal liberty' concepts, applied on the hoof. I don't have a book of rules, I have two broad principles that I try to apply as best I can as and when I need to.

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And that is very telling, if you had to choose which organisation got the pound in your pocket, does your atheism affect this, actually I think you have answered that question.

My atheism doesn't, so much as certain religious precepts that follow do. The Salvation Army, for instance, for all the good work they do, actively campaign against gay equality: I just can't stand to support that, so they don't get my money. I don't deny charitable organisations because of their religious nature, necessarily, so much as how they apply that.

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Can't really argue against this but the great work that the Church of Scotland, Church of England, Sally Ann, Barnados etc etc do, day in day out I think deserves some kind of privilege.

It does, and it's available - charities are entitled to tax relief on their activities. The problem isn't that they're eligible for it for their charitable work, it's the presumption that ALL of their activities are charitable works. Sending food to refugees, running shelters and food kitchens, fine. Paying vicars? Reroofing their buildings? Other organisations can't deem these to be 'charitable works', why does the church?

I'm a member of a rugby club, our club doesn't turn a profit, it's run for the benefit of anyone in the community to wants to come play - we can't register as a charity, based on that (there are simplified tax regimes that can apply, and as a small society we make use of one of these). The church, though, doesn't even need to justify, it just gets that charitable status because it's a church, despite being one of the largest land-owners in the country... That's privilege.

O.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7895 on: January 11, 2016, 08:57:17 PM »
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7896 on: January 11, 2016, 08:59:20 PM »
The proof can be found within the life of the Church.

Your regard for your church very often sounds like idolatry, ad-o.

ad_orientem

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7897 on: January 11, 2016, 09:15:39 PM »
Your regard for your church very often sounds like idolatry, ad-o.

Your comment is devoid of any meaning, though I'm sure it sounds great to your ears. The Church is the body of Christ. It is a divine institution.
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Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Rhiannon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7898 on: January 11, 2016, 09:25:09 PM »
Your comment is devoid of any meaning, though I'm sure it sounds great to your ears. The Church is the body of Christ. It is a divine institution.

Worshipping graven images? The Church is people - the created, not the creator.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7899 on: January 11, 2016, 09:25:29 PM »
Yes, it can.
No it can't, for the reason already given (which you missed out). If you think otherwise, prove it, but since you're committing two fallacies simultaneously - the argumentum ad populum/numerum and the argumentum ad antiquitatem - I don't give much for your chances.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 09:33:55 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.