Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3897453 times)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7900 on: January 11, 2016, 09:26:16 PM »
Your comment is devoid of any meaning, though I'm sure it sounds great to your ears. The Church is the body of Christ. It is a divine institution.
No prizes for guessing who's driving the Assertatron tonight.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7901 on: January 11, 2016, 10:04:55 PM »
Dear enki,

Post 8156 ( that tells a a story in itself )

Thank you Sir, a wonderful post, in fact I think I will give it a name, "Thoughts from an atheist" tell me enki, was that post difficult ( just having a small pop at your fellow atheists ;) ) did your finger bleed when typing it, did you fall on your knee's asking God to forgive you, are you now, at this moment racing to your local Church to beg forgiveness.

Enki, once again thank you.

I am just about to have something to eat, it has been a long day, but I will reply, your post deserves a reply, tomorrow but thank you.

Gonnagle.
http://www.barnardos.org.uk/shop/shop-search.htm

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Go on make a difference, have a rummage in your attic or garage.

ad_orientem

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7902 on: January 11, 2016, 10:15:17 PM »
Worshipping graven images? The Church is people - the created, not the creator.

The Church is the body of Christ. It is a divine institution. Our Lrd and God instituted it himself so that we might know where to go in order to be saved. Outside of it no one is saved.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7903 on: January 11, 2016, 10:26:38 PM »
Don't you see that what you are claiming is that God came to save us from something he could prevent but doesn't? Ultimately God is saving us from his own actions and/or inaction.
In God's own words, He came to deliver us from evil.  How can you say that He is saving us from His own actions?  He created free will, not evil.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7904 on: January 11, 2016, 10:28:40 PM »
Your kind assert that your god is responsible for humans, therefore your god is ultimately responsible for evil.

If I am an engineer and create a machine (such as a car) which I know is faulty enough to cause deaths and deliberately, knowingly and with malice or apathy aforethought release said machine into the general population, and said machine causes X number of deaths, I am not proximately responsible for those deaths but I am certainly ultimately responsible.

Besides which your book says otherwise to you. Is the book wrong or are you?
He did not create robots or puppets - He created beings with their own free will.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7905 on: January 11, 2016, 10:30:46 PM »
In God's own words, He came to deliver us from evil.  How can you say that He is saving us from His own actions?  He created free will, not evil.

But he knows exactly what we will all do from the moment of creation.
Therefore he could change the start conditions to arrive at the best outcome.
The way things are MUST be exactly what God wanted to happen if it is all knowing and all powerful.

If he knows what everyone will do you have no free will you are just following his already known path.

I see gullible people, everywhere!

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7906 on: January 11, 2016, 10:36:24 PM »
Worshipping graven images?
No one that I know worships graven images
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7907 on: January 11, 2016, 10:39:27 PM »
He did not create robots or puppets - He created beings with their own free will.
Quite apart from the fact that as usual this is mere assertion, do you consider free will (itself an undemonstrated concept) of superior value to the ability to rape, torture and murder children? (I don't, in case you wondered).
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7908 on: January 11, 2016, 10:42:02 PM »
If he knows what everyone will do you have no free will you are just following his already known path.
He may see the finished picture, but we have the free will to create the picture during our life on this earth.  Most importantly, we have the free will to accept Him as our saviour.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7909 on: January 11, 2016, 10:44:38 PM »
He may see the finished picture, but we have the free will to create the picture during our life on this earth.  Most importantly, we have the free will to accept Him as our saviour.

No not if he already knows what you will do AND created all the situations leading up to and including your actions.
Given that, then you cannot have free will.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7910 on: January 11, 2016, 10:46:14 PM »
He may see the finished picture, but we have the free will to create the picture during our life on this earth.  Most importantly, we have the free will to accept Him as our saviour.
Why bother, given that you're on record as having said that that's not necessary to go to heaven?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7911 on: January 11, 2016, 10:51:04 PM »
Quite apart from the fact that as usual this is mere assertion, do you consider free will (itself an undemonstrated concept) of superior value to the ability to rape, torture and murder children? (I don't, in case you wondered).
God could have created robots or puppets which act according to His will, but they would not have a soul - an independent identity of awareness.  By creating beings with a soul with self awareness and free will, He allows these beings to choose between good and evil.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7912 on: January 11, 2016, 10:53:06 PM »
Assertion piled upon assertion. Why do we even bother?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7913 on: January 11, 2016, 10:54:15 PM »
Why bother, given that you're on record as having said that that's not necessary to go to heaven?
I do not know if it is necessary or not - I am not in a capacity to judge, but I am certain it will help.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7914 on: January 11, 2016, 11:08:45 PM »
I do not know if it is necessary or not - I am not in a capacity to judge
So you were wrong, then, when you said it wasn't?

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but I am certain it will help.
How?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7915 on: January 12, 2016, 01:32:57 AM »
Sorry but there is no problem with God's sovereignty and our free will. They are not opposed at all. It is determined that children must attend school. (God)
It is up to the child if they want to learn and apply themselves to do just that or opt not to learn. (us)

Shaker,
Yes, why do you godless atheists bother? (snork)

Sassy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7916 on: January 12, 2016, 08:20:51 AM »
So even though God knew all that would follow from his/her actions he/she still went ahead and allowed (your word) all the suffering that supposedly followed from the Fall.

Wow - nice guy/guyess.

Your ability to post complete and utter nonsense never fails to entertain.

I suppose ignorance is bliss when it comes to the inability to reason...

To be or not to be, that is the question.

So if God decided not to create humans then you would never have existed.

Do people stop having children because they know of all the risks and dangers that could befall them?
Humans do not know the bigger plans for their children in this world but they still have children. Even aware of all they could suffer. Why is that?

Your reasoning does you no credit on this train of thought. Unlike our parents who knew the dangers and still allowed us to be born. God knew all that would happen before it did.  Your reasoning is really not sensible nor is it justified.
You see Trent, you have set your mind against God and create things to your way of thinking. God did nothing wrong when creating mankind. He knew the end from the beginning and he knew that the life we would end up with would be worth everything. You make the choices and the fact you post here proves you knew what the choices are.
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Sassy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7917 on: January 12, 2016, 08:24:55 AM »
Do you really not see that to someone who has no believe in God that they equate - that the idea of God is created by humans just as much as the idea of Thor is?

In the light and knowledge that we exist in what is an otherwise lifeless void, I believe that we can see a relevance and a reason for God. But Thor has nothing but humans to thank for his creation.
God is believed all over the world. Thor would have to be introduced.
If we reason correctly the truth of Thor is evident in that it was not known all over the world from the beginning. But God who created the earth was known everywhere. Before we discovered a planet alive in a lifeless void. Assuming space is really what they tell us it is....
We know we have to work together to abolish war and terrorism to create a compassionate  world in which Justice and peace prevail. Love ;D   Einstein
 "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7918 on: January 12, 2016, 08:33:32 AM »
In the light and knowledge that we exist in what is an otherwise lifeless void, I believe that we can see a relevance and a reason for God. But Thor has nothing but humans to thank for his creation.
God is believed all over the world. Thor would have to be introduced.
If we reason correctly the truth of Thor is evident in that it was not known all over the world from the beginning. But God who created the earth was known everywhere. Before we discovered a planet alive in a lifeless void. Assuming space is really what they tell us it is....

Even if all the humans on the planet believed in the Biblical deity, it doesn't mean it actually exists as there is no evidence to support its existence!

Aruntraveller

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7919 on: January 12, 2016, 09:21:00 AM »
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I suppose ignorance is bliss when it comes to the inability to reason...

It would appear so from everything that follows the above statement.

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You make the choices and the fact you post here proves you knew what the choices are.

Can we have that once more with an added 'sense' filter applied.

As in one that tells you to make some sense when posting.

Clearly you are posting in the style of Steven Moffat with your rather bizarre and inconsistent tense use within that one sentence.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 09:24:44 AM by Trentvoyager »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7920 on: January 12, 2016, 09:25:12 AM »
In the light and knowledge that we exist in what is an otherwise lifeless void, I believe that we can see a relevance and a reason for God.

Why presume that the far reaches of 'the void' of which we're unaware are lifeless? That's not 'knowledge' that's your belief.

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But Thor has nothing but humans to thank for his creation.

But in the (literal) light and knowledge of lightning and thunder...

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God is believed all over the world. Thor would have to be introduced.

God is only believed all over the world because he's been introduced. God wasn't in Britain until he was brought here.

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If we reason correctly the truth of Thor is evident in that it was not known all over the world from the beginning. But God who created the earth was known everywhere.

So we can add history to the list of things that you need to brush up on, it seems.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7921 on: January 12, 2016, 10:21:53 AM »
The fact is that we can recognise the evils in this world, and that we can differentiate between good and bad - not only within this world but within ourselves.  We recocogise that none of us are perfect, and this world is not perfect.  We know there can be something better.

This scenario is surely not what you would expect from an evolutionary process which moulded us into the reality which exists on this earth.  Unlike the other animals, we do not just accept this reality.  Humans have a vision of perfection.

Jesus shows us how we can achieve this perfection.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7922 on: January 12, 2016, 10:23:13 AM »
The fact is that we can recognise the evils in this world, and that we can differentiate between good and bad - not only within this world but within ourselves. We recocogise that none of us are perfect, and this world is not perfect.  We know there can be something better.

This scenario is surely not what you would expect from an evolutionary process which moulded us into the reality which exists on this earth.
Why not? The evolutionary account of a moral sense is rigorous and compelling; you just don't know much about it, or don't understand it, or don't like it, or any combination thereof.

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Unlike the other animals, we do not just accept this reality, humans have a vision of perfection.
I don't.

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Jesus shows us how we can achieve this perfection.
Well there's a surprise.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 10:25:04 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7923 on: January 12, 2016, 10:37:41 AM »
The evolutionary account of a moral sense is rigorous and compelling
Do other animals show any signs of discernment between good and bad?
Do other animals show any concept of yearning for something better?
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7924 on: January 12, 2016, 10:47:30 AM »
The fact is that we can recognise the evils in this world, and that we can differentiate between good and bad - not only within this world but within ourselves.

Equally factual, though, is that different people in different places (and different times) classify actions differently: to me, stoning a women for adultery is wrong, for other people in other places it's a moral requirement.

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We recocogise that none of us are perfect, and this world is not perfect.  We know there can be something better.

How is this world not perfect? Our behaviour I'd agree isn't ideal, but the world as a construct? It is what it is.

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This scenario is surely not what you would expect from an evolutionary process which moulded us into the reality which exists on this earth.

You don't 'expect' anything from evolutionary processes, they are not predictive. You simply observe what results and try to determine in what way particular traits either give a direct advantage or are evolutionarily-neutral byproducts of otherwise advantageous traits.

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Unlike the other animals, we do not just accept this reality.  Humans have a vision of perfection.

And that sort of abstraction appears to be a byproduct of our advanced linguistic and tool-wielding capacities, which emerged as it granted us survival benefits as a social creature able to co-ordinate and defend ourselves.

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Jesus shows us how we can achieve this perfection.

No, the allegation of Jesus asserts that we can't achieve this perfection, but that somewhere else, somewhen else, someone else has and will take us there...

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints