Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3897082 times)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7925 on: January 12, 2016, 10:50:23 AM »
Do other animals show any signs of discernment between good and bad?
Yes, they do.
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Do other animals show any concept of yearning for something better?
Yes, they do.

Try reading some primatology - almost anything by Jane Goodall and Frans de Waal.

Important note: it's not just the reading of it that counts, it's the understanding of it, Al.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7926 on: January 12, 2016, 10:56:41 AM »
... a book I'm ploughing through at the moment.('Miracles' by C.S.Lewis)

Thanks for your interesting post.
I would be interested to see how you get on with this book.
I found it fascinating because it touches upon several logical scenarios which I had conceived myself in my early twenties, but explains them in a much more eloquent way.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7927 on: January 12, 2016, 11:16:28 AM »
Yes, they do.Yes, they do.

Try reading some primatology - almost anything by Jane Goodall and Frans de Waal.

Important note: it's not just the reading of it that counts, it's the understanding of it, Al.
It is interesting to note that Jane Goodall has quite strong spiritual belief in souls and in God - see Reason for Hope - a spiritual journey.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7928 on: January 12, 2016, 11:33:32 AM »
It is interesting to note that Jane Goodall has quite strong spiritual belief in souls and in God - see Reason for Hope - a spiritual journey.
So? It means just another person capable of doublethink. Plenty of those about, and a few are even scientists.

What's not in question are her observations of moral behaviour in non-human primates, which is what we were discussing.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 11:35:16 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7929 on: January 12, 2016, 11:34:41 AM »
... even if humans were the only animal species on earth with concepts of good and bad etc, it still doesn't mean any deity was responsible.
Precisely.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7930 on: January 12, 2016, 11:34:54 AM »
Dear enki,

New word for today, Respect.

Understanding the atheist, that's the goal. :o

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Fair point. I'll try to answer it. I was brought up in a non Christian household, so the only influence Christianity had on me would probably have been through my early schooling, although to be honest, apart from appearing in a Nativity play, I cannot think of one instance where Christianity played any part in my life. Later I became a member of a Methodist Youth fellowship and Club. Apart from the useful ability to meet other people, especially girls, the interminable sermons on Sundays only had the predictable(in my case) outcome of boring me. I cannot remember today even one single sermon. None of the people I met, apart from my obvious interest in people of my own age, had any discernible affect upon me.

Let me start by saying, Church was boring, I had a read of Outriders reply to me ( I will try to reply to his post ) he also mentioned boredom, so a quick note to any Christians who might be interested, if you are genuinely interested in gaining new followers, think on.

When you say you later became a member of the Methodist youth fellowship, can I assume that you grew up in an age where Church gave the best chances for meeting others of your own age group, see!! reading your post I am forming an impression that Christianity had more of an impact than you realise.

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However, when I went to university, I met all sorts of different people with different religious views,including local Jewish people, Catholics, Cof E, Methodists, a Sikh, several Indians and a Jew who had started his own version of religion called Rational Theism. Having no set beliefs, myself, I came to the naive conclusion that if only people were confronted with people who were just as steadfast in their own beliefs as they themselves were, then people would respect the religious persuasions of others as being of equal worth to their own. Consequentially I started a series of meetings between some of these people, which lasted some time. Unfortunately I have to say that the 'true for me, true for you' attitude pervaded and I became quite disillusioned that my grand design had resulted in epic failure. Ah, the enthusiasm of youth. :)  However, what my university years did do, and, I suppose one might say that people's varying views on religion(Christianity being but one) had an effect on, was help sow the seeds of the position which I now hold.

Once again I see that Christianity/religion is playing a part in your upbringing but I can only agree that this "one true way" is a big stumbling block, maybe one truth we can all take from this and other threads/posters is that religion/faith is a very personal thing, actually as I think about this, it is bleedin! obvious but I am open to others arguing against this.

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As far as the Gospels are concerned. I see much that is enlightening and useful in them, but I see much that is enlightening in other books too.(E.G., for me, Shakespeare).


The Gospels are the starting point for me, more importantly the Two Greatest Commandments ( sorry, when I say starting point, I mean, understanding ) you may have noticed that I am a big Karen Armstrong fan, she mentions that practice comes first and then belief ( my simplistic understanding of her message ).

If you see some of the Gospels as enlightening and useful, and you practice them, then belief is not my department, that's Gods.

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Perhaps it might be fair to say that Christian culture has influenced me, almost by proxy, helping to formulate my present views, for good or ill.

Christianity has shaped you in some way, would you be annoyed if I call you a "cultural Christian".

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I have no problem in opening up as you call it, but only when people seem genuinely interested, otherwise I would be simply boring the pants(skirts?) off them.

Never boring, atheists on this forum make me think, the list is too long to mention all the names, I will simply say, enter stage left old almost sensible. :)

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Great. I can be just as easily fascinated by a book on bird migration, the latest ideas in quantum biology or a book I'm ploughing through at the moment.('Miracles' by C.S.Lewis)

C.S Lewis, had a quick look, sounds a bit Vladdish.

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I can only suggest that in my case any moral feelings that I may have are evolutionary in nature, tempered by my nurture, culture and a rational approach.

Sorry but from your post a big part is culture, a drip feed effect, I don't mean that in a bad way but I do think Christianity has affected you quite a bit.

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Or indeed from theists shouting from the roof tops about all the great work done by Oxfam or Amnesty International.

Oxfam and Amnesty, oh! they have both stepped away from any Christian connection but they have been influenced, but that is not my point, I don't decry charities which are non religious, my point is privilege, but maybe privilege is the wrong word, could the word be respect.

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Thanks for answering the question for me. Actually, where the money goes is pretty important to me, as well as considering if the charity is well managed. The only way being an atheist affects any money I may give is if the aim of the charity/organization is to further their religious message(which includes Christianity, of course). Yes, if their aim is one which I do not agree with, then why should I support it, and, instead, then why should I not choose a charity whose aim is to help people in need? (which was part of my original response which you quite accidentally of course, missed out)

Well first I have to state the obvious, they want your soul for Jesus, they want to further their religious message, but going back to my last sentence, do they deserve privilege, respect, I don't see how you can argue against, without Christian charities the government/NHS would be snowed under.

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ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7931 on: January 12, 2016, 11:43:21 AM »
I suppose ignorance is bliss when it comes to the inability to reason...

To be or not to be, that is the question.

So if God decided not to create humans then you would never have existed.

Do people stop having children because they know of all the risks and dangers that could befall them?
Humans do not know the bigger plans for their children in this world but they still have children. Even aware of all they could suffer. Why is that?

Your reasoning does you no credit on this train of thought. Unlike our parents who knew the dangers and still allowed us to be born. God knew all that would happen before it did.  Your reasoning is really not sensible nor is it justified.
You see Trent, you have set your mind against God and create things to your way of thinking. God did nothing wrong when creating mankind. He knew the end from the beginning and he knew that the life we would end up with would be worth everything. You make the choices and the fact you post here proves you knew what the choices are.

I suppose ignorance is bliss when it comes to the inability to reason...

You shouldn't know.

ippy

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7932 on: January 12, 2016, 12:11:37 PM »
I just wanted to share this clip from the introduction to Jane Goodall's book - Reason for Hope

Many years ago, in the spring of I974, I visited the cathedral of Notre Darne in Paris. There were not many people around, and it was quiet and still inside. I gazed in silent awe at the great Rose Window, glowing in the morning sun. All at once the cathedral was filled with a huge volume of sound: an organ playing magnificently for a wedding taking place in a distant corner. Bach’s Toccata and Fugue in D Minor. I had always loved the opening theme; but in the cathedral, filling the entire vastness, it seemed to enter and possess my whole self. It was as though the music itself was alive.  That moment, a suddenly captured moment of eternity, was perhaps the closest I have ever come to experiencing ecstasy, the ecstasy of the mystic. How could I believe it was the chance gyrations of bits of primeval dust that had led up to that moment in time—the cathedral soaring to the sky; the collective inspiration and faith of those who caused it to be built; the advent of Bach himself; the brain, his brain, that translated truth into music; and the mind that could, as mine did then, comprehend the whole inexorable progression of evolution?  Since I cannot believe that this was the result of chance, l have to admit anti-chance. And so l must believe in a guiding power in the universe— in other words, l must believe in God.       
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 12:13:55 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7933 on: January 12, 2016, 12:13:55 PM »
So Jane Goodall can deploy the argument from personal incredulity just the same as you can Alan - is this supposed to be news or something? Her bad reasons for believing in God seem to be the same as yours - no wonder you quote her.

You may be interested (and disappointed) to know that in September 2010 she said: "I don't have any idea of who or what God is. But I do believe in some great spiritual power. I feel it particularly when I'm out in nature. It's just something that's bigger and stronger than what I am or what anybody is. I feel it. And it's enough for me."

So she purports to believe in something she has no idea about. Not the first, is she?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 12:20:54 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7934 on: January 12, 2016, 12:28:18 PM »
Dear Shaker,

The lady has no idea, I think she has lots of ideas and your quote reminds me of a poster who has a "natural pagan soul".

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Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7935 on: January 12, 2016, 12:33:36 PM »
I think she has lots of ideas
I think she does too, just that not all of them are very well or clearly thought out.

Quote
and your quote reminds me of a poster who has a "natural pagan soul".
I don't know why - she's not a pagan but claims to be a theist despite admitting that she has no idea about the thing she claims to believe in.

That's very far from new to me, believe you me, but it's still disappointing.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 12:45:16 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7936 on: January 12, 2016, 01:18:33 PM »
Dear Outrider,

Respect.

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It's difficult to say. Directly, primarily, the New Testament bored me, church bored me. Indirectly, it's virtually impossible to pull out of the cultural mix which bits are morals that Christianity has adopted, which bits are culturally British that have been imprinted on the church, and which are the bits in between and bits from other cultures and religions... It's like trying to define what being 'British' means...

Difficult to say, does this mean or do you think that atheists have not given much thought to how their atheism has affected their lives, but I do understand when you say it may be like trying to define Britishness.

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Atheism just means that what you have isn't necessarily the Gospels - for me, personally, it's a mixture of 'least harm' and 'personal liberty' concepts, applied on the hoof. I don't have a book of rules, I have two broad principles that I try to apply as best I can as and when I need to.

Book of rules, never thought of the Gospels as a book of rules, one to think about.

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My atheism doesn't, so much as certain religious precepts that follow do. The Salvation Army, for instance, for all the good work they do, actively campaign against gay equality: I just can't stand to support that, so they don't get my money. I don't deny charitable organisations because of their religious nature, necessarily, so much as how they apply that.

Another one for me to think about, if a organisation is campaigning against gay equality but is also out and about everyday feeding our less fortunate, no, no thought required, I can totally understand where you are coming from here.

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It does, and it's available - charities are entitled to tax relief on their activities. The problem isn't that they're eligible for it for their charitable work, it's the presumption that ALL of their activities are charitable works. Sending food to refugees, running shelters and food kitchens, fine. Paying vicars? Reroofing their buildings? Other organisations can't deem these to be 'charitable works', why does the church?

I'm a member of a rugby club, our club doesn't turn a profit, it's run for the benefit of anyone in the community to wants to come play - we can't register as a charity, based on that (there are simplified tax regimes that can apply, and as a small society we make use of one of these). The church, though, doesn't even need to justify, it just gets that charitable status because it's a church, despite being one of the largest land-owners in the country... That's privilege.

Well we are in agreement here, the CoE and the CoS are not poor but you keep mentioning taxes, I think this is my confusion, I am thinking the word I should be using is respect not privilege.

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ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7937 on: January 12, 2016, 01:19:28 PM »
I just wanted to share this clip from the introduction to Jane Goodall's book - Reason for Hope

Many years ago, in the spring of I974, I visited the cathedral of Notre Darne in Paris. There were not many people around, and it was quiet and still inside. I gazed in silent awe at the great Rose Window, glowing in the morning sun. All at once the cathedral was filled with a huge volume of sound: an organ playing magnificently for a wedding taking place in a distant corner. Bach’s Toccata and Fugue in D Minor. I had always loved the opening theme; but in the cathedral, filling the entire vastness, it seemed to enter and possess my whole self. It was as though the music itself was alive.  That moment, a suddenly captured moment of eternity, was perhaps the closest I have ever come to experiencing ecstasy, the ecstasy of the mystic. How could I believe it was the chance gyrations of bits of primeval dust that had led up to that moment in time—the cathedral soaring to the sky; the collective inspiration and faith of those who caused it to be built; the advent of Bach himself; the brain, his brain, that translated truth into music; and the mind that could, as mine did then, comprehend the whole inexorable progression of evolution?  Since I cannot believe that this was the result of chance, l have to admit anti-chance. And so l must believe in a guiding power in the universe— in other words, l must believe in God.       

This post of yours Alan just shows how deeply ignorant you are about how evolution works, the pope of all people, even the pope is more enlightened than you are.

ippy

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7938 on: January 12, 2016, 01:22:19 PM »
I suppose ignorance is bliss when it comes to the inability to reason...

To be or not to be, that is the question.

So if God decided not to create humans then you would never have existed.

Do people stop having children because they know of all the risks and dangers that could befall them?
Humans do not know the bigger plans for their children in this world but they still have children. Even aware of all they could suffer. Why is that?

Your reasoning does you no credit on this train of thought. Unlike our parents who knew the dangers and still allowed us to be born. God knew all that would happen before it did.  Your reasoning is really not sensible nor is it justified.
You see Trent, you have set your mind against God and create things to your way of thinking. God did nothing wrong when creating mankind. He knew the end from the beginning and he knew that the life we would end up with would be worth everything. You make the choices and the fact you post here proves you knew what the choices are.

5

ippy

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7939 on: January 12, 2016, 01:26:37 PM »
Dear Outrider,

Respect.

Difficult to say, does this mean or do you think that atheists have not given much thought to how their atheism has affected their lives, but I do understand when you say it may be like trying to define Britishness.



Gonnagle.

Can I suggest, Gonzo, that when one person who is an atheist makes a statement, you don't assume that they are making a statement for all atheists? Particularly when you have asked for personal experiences. Treat people as individuals.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7940 on: January 12, 2016, 01:31:45 PM »
Yes, they do.Yes, they do.

Try reading some primatology - almost anything by Jane Goodall and Frans de Waal.

Important note: it's not just the reading of it that counts, it's the understanding of it, Al.

You've done it again Shakes; nothing like it when you strike the nail squarely on the head.

Ever heard about cognitive dissonance? Now where do you think there could be a precise example of this complaint, I know it's a difficult question, but do your best Shakes?

ippy 


Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7941 on: January 12, 2016, 01:33:48 PM »
Dear Sane,

Suggest away, but I was only asking for his opinion >:(

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7942 on: January 12, 2016, 01:45:02 PM »
Dear Sane,

Suggest away, but I was only asking for his opinion >:(

Gonnagle.


Except the lazy generalization haunts your discussion here. Who are all the atheists who have avoided talking about how they became atheist  or the impact, if any, of Christianity upon them?


Why would outsider be in a position, or think they were in a position to,  make a statement about how atheism has affected people people, or how much they might have thought about it?

torridon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7943 on: January 12, 2016, 01:56:49 PM »
Do other animals show any signs of discernment between good and bad?
Do other animals show any concept of yearning for something better?

The majority of higher animals, humans included obviously, share the seven basic emotions, but shame and guilt being somewhat more complex are not considered primary emotions. Having said that, we observe concepts of troup discipline at work in some primate groups so it is reasonable to infer that they too have a rudimentary sense of right and wrong. It's evident that this sense is far more developed and elaborated in humans and it is instructive for us that we study not just comparative anatomies but also comparative behaviours so that we can better understand our own species, body and mind.

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7944 on: January 12, 2016, 02:02:06 PM »
In the light and knowledge that we exist in what is an otherwise lifeless void, I believe that we can see a relevance and a reason for God.{/quote]

You can but a non-believer cannot.

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But Thor has nothing but humans to thank for his creation.

And that its the point - to non-believers so is God.

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God is believed all over the world. Thor would have to be introduced.

How wide spread the belief is isn't really relevant to whether it is man made or not.

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If we reason correctly the truth of Thor is evident in that it was not known all over the world from the beginning.

But God who created the earth was known everywhere. Before we discovered a planet alive in a lifeless void. Assuming space is really what they tell us it is....

What makes you believe God was known everywhere. They don't tell us space is a lifeless void - to date we have found no other life forms but it is a big Universe and we've only just started looking.

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7945 on: January 12, 2016, 02:07:30 PM »
Difficult to say, does this mean or do you think that atheists have not given much thought to how their atheism has affected their lives, but I do understand when you say it may be like trying to define Britishness.

I think that history is so incremental and 'culture' so complex that the interweaving of cultural influence and explicitly Christian influence, and the back and forth of them as they influence each other makes it virtually impossible to precisely pinpoint 'the' source (if there is a single source) for virtually any individual element.

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Book of rules, never thought of the Gospels as a book of rules, one to think about.

It's not the explicit rules of, say, the 10 commandments, but it's supposed to be some sort of instruction on how to reach heaven/live a good life. Unfortunately, certainly when I was younger, the fact that it was a fairy tale meant that it had as much viability as such as, say, Star Wars. Later, when I was capable of rationalising the idea of art as a depiction of the human condition, I saw that whilst that still applied, it didn't mean it had nothing to say. Nevertheless, I still see it as a work of fiction with something to say, a piece of literature and art.

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Another one for me to think about, if a organisation is campaigning against gay equality but is also out and about everyday feeding our less fortunate, no, no thought required, I can totally understand where you are coming from here.

If there were a dearth of charitable institutions it might be more of a problem, but there are institutions out there that don't require me to work with a group that I fundamentally disagree with on a fairly important issue to me.

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Well we are in agreement here, the CoE and the CoS are not poor but you keep mentioning taxes, I think this is my confusion, I am thinking the word I should be using is respect not privilege.

As with any large organisation, respect is due for certain aspects and perhaps not for others. Each area has to be treated on its own merits, I suspect. Certainly the fact that it's a church doesn't mean it automatically merits respect - the Roman Catholic church is a church which has a chequered history and significant failings in the modern era whilst still having achieved great things in many areas; Scientology is a church for which I struggle to find anything worthy of respect.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7946 on: January 12, 2016, 02:30:08 PM »
Dear Outrider,

Quote
It's not the explicit rules of, say, the 10 commandments, but it's supposed to be some sort of instruction on how to reach heaven/live a good life. Unfortunately, certainly when I was younger, the fact that it was a fairy tale meant that it had as much viability as such as, say, Star Wars. Later, when I was capable of rationalising the idea of art as a depiction of the human condition, I saw that whilst that still applied, it didn't mean it had nothing to say. Nevertheless, I still see it as a work of fiction with something to say, a piece of literature and art.

Fairytale, nevermind eh!!

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Brownie

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7947 on: January 12, 2016, 03:07:51 PM »
The piece that Alan Burns has quoted is very beautiful and, to me, it describes a dreamy, spiritual experience - something that can happen to all of us.  It doesn't mean it is "religious" as such but an experience brought about by a state of mind in a place where the person's senses are complemented.  A good thing.  I have had similar, the last time was sitting in a garden on a warm day and looking up at moving clouds.  I felt sleepy, tranquil and very content.

I couldn't see what the quote had to do with evolution.  Did I miss something?

It's possible to be sensitive to atmospheres in places which are less pleasant and that isn't a good experience!

God has certainly designed us to be receptive to atmospheres, some of us more than others, but it doesn't do to make too much of it because most of us have such experiences at different times.   Let's just appreciate the beautiful ones - and move on.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Maeght

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7948 on: January 12, 2016, 03:10:43 PM »

I couldn't see what the quote had to do with evolution.  Did I miss something?


Yes - the title of the thread perhaps  :)

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #7949 on: January 12, 2016, 03:12:46 PM »
So Jane Goodall can deploy the argument from personal incredulity just the same as you can Alan - is this supposed to be news or something? Her bad reasons for believing in God seem to be the same as yours - no wonder you quote her.

You may be interested (and disappointed) to know that in September 2010 she said: "I don't have any idea of who or what God is. But I do believe in some great spiritual power. I feel it particularly when I'm out in nature. It's just something that's bigger and stronger than what I am or what anybody is. I feel it. And it's enough for me."

So she purports to believe in something she has no idea about. Not the first, is she?
Our knowledge of God is restricted by what our physical senses can perceive, which is why God made Himself known to us by becoming one of us.

I must have something in common with Jane Goodall because Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor is my favorite piece of music.  To hear it resounding through the vast interior of a great cathedral is how it was meant to be heard, and as Jane said, the translation of truth into music, a moment of eternity - a brief glimpse of Heaven perhaps?
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 03:20:59 PM by Alan Burns »
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton