Searching for GOD...

[Gonnagle]

Dear ekim,

There's nothing wrong with shit, in the right place, anyway.  As Gonnagle knows, as an allotment grower, it has the potential to encourage the growth of, or transform into, highly prized produce.

Exactly, but to one's who replied to my post, were you there, did it happen to you, that one moment changed my life, and here's the thing, I asked Our Lord how could I make amends.

Now old Blue will probably put it all down to the laws of probability, coincidences, well there was a hell of a lot of coincidences, now you can analyse that all you want, say that my neurons were firing in a new way that made me be in the right place at the right time, well maybe, but for me, from that day, the Lord walked with me.

Just to add, that poem about foot prints in the sand, well throughout my life there has been a hell of a lot of just one set of footprints, but as ekim says, I am still growing, still transforming.

Gonnagle.

[Shaker]

You do not seem to recognise that many people's lives have changed for the better after embracing the Christian faith.  I know of many who can testify to this.

You do not seem to recognise that many people's lives have been changed for the better after dropping it, Alan. I know of many who can testify to this, too - but I doubt that you'll be interested in hearing about it.

[Leonard James]

Dear ekim,

Exactly, but to one's who replied to my post, were you there, did it happen to you, that one moment changed my life, and here's the thing, I asked Our Lord how could I make amends.

Now old Blue will probably put it all down to the laws of probability, coincidences, well there was a hell of a lot of coincidences, now you can analyse that all you want, say that my neurons were firing in a new way that made me be in the right place at the right time, well maybe, but for me, from that day, the Lord walked with me.

Just to add, that poem about foot prints in the sand, well throughout my life there has been a hell of a lot of just one set of footprints, but as ekim says, I am still growing, still transforming.

Gonnagle.

It is clear, Gonners, that you are convinced that Jesus is walking with you, just as it is clear to me that he isn't.

That's the way it will have to be! 

[Maeght]

Regarding cultural Christianity and the influence of atheism on life - well clearly Christianity has influenced the UK culture at some of the habits and traditions of my life will have a basis in that. My attitudes to other people are influenced by my upbringing (not overtly Christian in anyway) and my ability to empathise with others and I would not attach a Christianity label to these, I think they are human qualities associated with living in societies which need rules, structures and mutual support to flourish. I don't think my lack of belief in God has a specific effect on my life, just a lack of taking part in religious activities, but it is difficult to say as I have never experienced not being an atheist in my adult life.

Not sure if this is the sort of feedback you were looking for Gonnagle but for what it's worth there it is.

[Outrider]

Regarding cultural Christianity and the influence of atheism on life - well clearly Christianity has influenced the UK culture at some of the habits and traditions of my life will have a basis in that.

Equally, though, British culture has influenced Christianity as it's expressed in the UK - British (Protestant) Christianity is a manifestly different beast to the protestantism of, say, the African nations, or the US.

I think the culture we have in the UK is post-Christian these days - we can acknowledge the history of Christianity, but it's direct influence these days is negligible - it's more about what we've learned from having gone through Christianity than what we've learned from Christianity.

O.

[Maeght]

Equally, though, British culture has influenced Christianity as it's expressed in the UK - British (Protestant) Christianity is a manifestly different beast to the protestantism of, say, the African nations, or the US.

I think the culture we have in the UK is post-Christian these days - we can acknowledge the history of Christianity, but it's direct influence these days is negligible - it's more about what we've learned from having gone through Christianity than what we've learned from Christianity.

O.

Yes, I'd agree with all that.

[Leonard James]

You do not seem to recognise that many people's lives have changed for the better after embracing the Christian faith.  I know of many who can testify to this.

If they think that being a Christian is the only way they can live good lives, we should try to show them that such is not the case.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Shaker,

You do not seem to recognise that many people's lives have been changed for the better after dropping it, Alan. I know of many who can testify to this.

So we have been told on this forum, I have read words like freedom, freethinker, rationality, reality used but when I go on to investigate these words I find that they are quite hard to define.

Freedom, what kind of freedom, when the discussion turns to free will, where's the freedom.

Freethinker, can we actually do this.

Rationality, now that's a cracker, I read the science, I try to follow what the psychologists say, turns out we are all irrational creatures.

Reality, what is that, there is no God, well until someone gives me a accurate and definitive description of God.

In my attempt to try and have the atheist open up, it seems I have to tread very carefully, but then that's my bad, why should I think that the atheist stepping away from theism is any less life changing than my experience.

Gonnagle.

[floo]

If the Biblical deity exists it appears in a variety of guises. Christianity has many doctrines, dogmas, sects and cults, often singing from very different hymn sheets.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Gordon,

There are better alternatives, and in relation to morality my feeling is that the older approach of Aristotle (virtue ethics) is an example that is by far more useful and better thought-through: put simply I think the ‘Golden Mean’ is a better approach than the ‘Golden Rule’.

Now where did that come from!! have you mentioned this before, questions old friend will be asked in the house, okay the pub, you better be on your game, I will be investigating this golden mean and quizzing you

Gonnagle.

[Gordon]

In my attempt to try and have the atheist open up, it seems I have to tread very carefully, but then that's my bad, why should I think that the atheist stepping away from theism is any less life changing than my experience.

Some have described their move away from Christianity as being a major issue for them: I think Rhi and Len have said along these lines, but that isn't the same for the likes of those, like me, who never acquired Christianity in the first place so that there is nothing for me to walk away from that would involve any change in my outlook etc.

Without having had exposure to Christianity during my childhood my view is that there is nothing that would attract me to it as an adult since I couldn't take seriously the core miraculous beliefs (especially the resurrection of Jesus claim) and since there are any number of more useful philosophical approaches to stuff like morality. With the decline in Christianity I suspect that my experience is becoming more common in that increasingly more of us are simply 'unchurched'.   

[Gordon]

Dear Gordon,

Now where did that come from!! have you mentioned this before, questions old friend will be asked in the house, okay the pub, you better be on your game, I will be investigating this golden mean and quizzing you

Gonnagle.

Look forward to it (and don't forget the biscuits) 

[Rhiannon]

Dear ekim,

Exactly, but to one's who replied to my post, were you there, did it happen to you, that one moment changed my life, and here's the thing, I asked Our Lord how could I make amends.

Now old Blue will probably put it all down to the laws of probability, coincidences, well there was a hell of a lot of coincidences, now you can analyse that all you want, say that my neurons were firing in a new way that made me be in the right place at the right time, well maybe, but for me, from that day, the Lord walked with me.

Just to add, that poem about foot prints in the sand, well throughout my life there has been a hell of a lot of just one set of footprints, but as ekim says, I am still growing, still transforming.

Gonnagle.

Gonners, I don't dispute that you had a profound and life-changing experience - I don't think anyone here is. What we are finding sad is that in order to have it you also took on board a lot of unnecessary stuff about you being worthless shit. It is possible to turn your life around without that, you know.

My experience to yours is different in that I spent over thirty years in the worthless shit camp before losing my faith. Not easy to lose decades of needless guilt and shame, but it can be done, and I'm not more selfish or greedy for the steps that I have taken away from those beliefs - just a lot more peaceful inside.

[wigginhall]

Yes, the 'I am a worthless sinner' theme is not exactly guaranteed to make you feel happy.   But there is a wide range about this amongst Christians; I suppose in general, evangelical Protestants are harsher than Catholics, and it seems to become vindictive at times - just wait until you see what God has in store for you, as TW is wont to say.   One church in Norfolk sent round a flyer arguing that 9/11 was a punishment for ignoring God, which sounds like a spiteful child. 

It's interesting to see how the themes of guilt, punishment and recovery are played out in Christianity, but maybe this partly explains the contemporary indifference to it - why would people want to be told that they are at fault?  Of course, you're also told that there is a remedy, but you have already been insulted.

[Shaker]

Some have described their move away from Christianity as being a major issue for them: I think Rhi and Len have said along these lines, but that isn't the same for the likes of those, like me, who never acquired Christianity in the first place so that there is nothing for me to walk away from that would involve any change in my outlook etc.

Without having had exposure to Christianity during my childhood my view is that there is nothing that would attract me to it as an adult since I couldn't take seriously the core miraculous beliefs (especially the resurrection of Jesus claim) and since there are any number of more useful philosophical approaches to stuff like morality. With the decline in Christianity I suspect that my experience is becoming more common in that increasingly more of us are simply 'unchurched'.

Another superb post, and also my experience exactly.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Hi again Gonners,

Now old Blue will probably put it all down to the laws of probability, coincidences, well there was a hell of a lot of coincidences, now you can analyse that all you want, say that my neurons were firing in a new way that made me be in the right place at the right time, well maybe, but for me, from that day, the Lord walked with me.

Sort of. All outcomes are the result of a "hell of a lot of co-incidences" - if I pay for a packet of biscuits at the till in Waitrose, what are the chances that both the girl and I were born at all, that our lives should have led to being in the same place at that very moment, that the biscuits I wanted had been invented and were on sale when I wanted them etc etc? Sometimes though some assign special significance to just a few of these countless fantastically unlikely events, and then they reach for spooky explanations on the assumption that there must have been some kind of purpose involved.

As for your experience, many have had them in many gods other than your own and indeed they occur naturally for known reasons (frontal temporal lobe epilepsy for example) and the likes of Derren Brown can induce them by suggestion, and all these people believe just as strongly as you do that they have had a profound, transcendental experience of the universe talking to them. 

Does that mean definitively that there was no god around when you had your experience? No, of course not - what it does mean though is that there are many common alternative explanations within the realm of the testable. Just as gravity appears to make the apple fall but it could be that it's actually pixies doing it with invisible strings, so the rational response is provisionally at least to opt for the naturalistic pending further data. (Cue Vlad repeating his epic mistake re methodological materialism or some such...)

Anyways, I wish you well in it nonethless.       

[Shaker]

Yes, the 'I am a worthless sinner' theme is not exactly guaranteed to make you feel happy.   But there is a wide range about this amongst Christians; I suppose in general, evangelical Protestants are harsher than Catholics, and it seems to become vindictive at times - just wait until you see what God has in store for you, as TW is wont to say. One church in Norfolk sent round a flyer arguing that 9/11 was a punishment for ignoring God, which sounds like a spiteful child.

There's a difference in terms of how much emphasis is given to it between denominations, I fully agree, but surely the essential unworthiness or badness of the subject or, at its very mildest, a subject with a sundered and fractured relationship with God is the absolute bedrock of Christian belief without which the label of Christian seems a misnomer, surely.

I hadn't heard of the Norfolk church story and am surprised that such a thing happened here - that sort of thing is more associated with the US and the Pat Robertsons of the world.

It's interesting to see how the themes of guilt, punishment and recovery are played out in Christianity, but maybe this partly explains the contemporary indifference to it - why would people want to be told that they are at fault?  Of course, you're also told that there is a remedy, but you have already been insulted.

It's been the standard operating procedure of every shyster, con-man and snake oil salesman since for ever to create in the minds of his audience a perceived lack which only he can fill, or the perception of a condition which only he can remedy for just six easy monthly payments of £49.99 + p & p ...

[bluehillside Retd.]

Wiggs,

Yes, the 'I am a worthless sinner' theme is not exactly guaranteed to make you feel happy.   But there is a wide range about this amongst Christians; I suppose in general, evangelical Protestants are harsher than Catholics, and it seems to become vindictive at times - just wait until you see what God has in store for you, as TW is wont to say.   One church in Norfolk sent round a flyer arguing that 9/11 was a punishment for ignoring God, which sounds like a spiteful child. 

It's interesting to see how the themes of guilt, punishment and recovery are played out in Christianity, but maybe this partly explains the contemporary indifference to it - why would people want to be told that they are at fault?  Of course, you're also told that there is a remedy, but you have already been insulted.

There certainly are people who want to be told that they are at fault. Those with low self-esteem, maybe with a long experience of a belittling parent will find validation of their feelings about themselves - "See, I knew all along I was a piece of crap - even God thinks so" - and the idea of huge celestial comfort blanket as a way out must be a beguiling one. I'm always struck for example by how many stories about religious conversion start with "I was a worthless wretch, drunken, picking fights, stealing from loved ones etc until God saved me".

Now of course not all of them follow that narrative, but there does seem to be a correlation at least between people who feel that way about themselves and their later conversions.   

[Rhiannon]

I don't think there's a problem with being aware of the mistakes one has made. That's a world away from being told you are worthless, and not only that, but are doomed to keep repeating the same level of evil ('sin') over and over.

[floo]

I am far from perfect, but a saint compared to the Biblical deity and the deeds attributed to it!

[Shaker]

I don't think there's a problem with being aware of the mistakes one has made. That's a world away from being told you are worthless, and not only that, but are doomed to keep repeating the same level of evil ('sin') over and over.

I think it's in the Foreword to Brave New World that Aldous Huxley said that chronic remorse and guilt and unworthiness are a sure ticket to a miserable life - constantly rolling in the muck is no way to get clean.

But of course Vlad would just say that this is the good bloke hypothesis playing put yet again ...

[Gordon]

Isn't it the case too that Christians need to see themselves as inherently sinful in order to play out the narrative that they have created for themselves: mankind sinned (fruit and talking snakes etc) and 'fell' so that we are all sinners that have become estranged from God, so we now need to be saved and, hey presto, up pops a miraculous saviour sent by God to save us.

Since the creation/Adam and Eve/'fall' stuff is clearly ancient myth I'd have thought the rest of this narrative simply falls apart.   

[Shaker]

Isn't it the case too that Christians need to see themselves as inherently sinful in order to play out the narrative that they have created for themselves: mankind sinned (fruit and talking snakes etc) and 'fell' so that we are all sinners that have become estranged from God, so we now need to be saved and, hey presto, up pops a miraculous saviour sent by God to save us.

Since the creation/Adam and Eve/'fall' stuff is clearly ancient myth I'd have thought the rest of this narrative simply falls apart.

That's exactly what I'd always thought too. Otherwise Christianity comes to seem like a torso with no legs, as 'twere - no base, no foundations.

[Nearly Sane]

Isn't it the case too that Christians need to see themselves as inherently sinful in order to play out the narrative that they have created for themselves: mankind sinned (fruit and talking snakes etc) and 'fell' so that we are all sinners that have become estranged from God, so we now need to be saved and, hey presto, up pops a miraculous saviour sent by God to save us.

Since the creation/Adam and Eve/'fall' stuff is clearly ancient myth I'd have thought the rest of this narrative simply falls apart.

No, Christianity runs the whole gamut here. Some Christians follow the sinner route, others declaim their sanctification, many just think they are like the rest of us neither saints nor sinners, just people.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Blue,

A path, my path.

Jesus walks that path with me, you can analyse that to death, take everything that has happened in my life, put me on a couch, ask me lots of questions, but I would still have to ask, why does it work.

My confirmation bias, yes I am a confirmation Christian bias son of a......................

And I see that the conversation has returned to Christians, yes us Christians are far more interesting than boring old atheists

Gonnagle.