Author Topic: Searching for GOD...  (Read 3896252 times)

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8125 on: January 18, 2016, 11:45:08 AM »
Just try to imagine the scenario:
God brings into existence a whole series of self replicating biological machines which can survive through the naturally hostile conditions of this universe. Then He gives one of these creatures
One of which you just happen to be, ignoring the fact (it is one) that other creatures perceive too -

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the amazing ability to percieve all that has been created.

Humans can do that, then, can they?
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A whole universe comes into existence in the perception of each one of these creatures. The universe was made to be perceived!
All for little old you, eh, Alan?

As the late lamented Hitch said, I've been called arrogant in my time but the self-centred arrogance of theism is beyond me.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 11:50:12 AM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8126 on: January 18, 2016, 12:08:40 PM »
AB,

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Once you try to define perception in physical terms it just becomes a series of discrete reactions with no definable point at which you can say perception occurs.

Whether the "just" is appropriate is moot, but there's no reason to think that there isn't such a "definable point" - whether in fact or in principle. For starters though you'd need to tell us what you mean by "perception". Do dogs have it for example? Wasps? Slime mold?

Either way though, you're committing another logical fallacy here - the appeal to consequences ("argumentum ad consequentiam"). Whether or not you happen to like the answer says nothing whatever to whether or not it is the answer.

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We take the amazing gift of perception so much for granted

It cannot be a "gift" unless you can demonstrate a giver. If you want to argue though "consciousness is hard, therefore god"/"god gave us consciousness, therefore consciousness" that's just circular reasoning - another logical fallacy.   

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Just try to imagine the scenario:

God brings into existence a whole series of self replicating biological machines which can survive through the naturally hostile conditions of this universe.  Then He gives one of these creatures the amazing ability to percieve all that has been created.  A whole universe comes into existence in the perception of each one of these creatures.  The universe was made to be perceived!

Just try to imagine the scenario:

The High Priest Bug-eyed Gringlemorph of Nephalim ordained that everyone's legs should be just long enough to reach the ground...

Each of us can "imagine" anything we like, but that's all we'd have - imaginings. Your problem here is to develop an actual argument to suggest why your imagining should be taken any more seriously than mine.
 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 12:52:40 PM by bluehillside »
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Brownie

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8127 on: January 18, 2016, 12:21:50 PM »
If that was the case it screwed up very badly! ::)

Why and how?  Do you not have a decent life and enjoy yourself?  We screw up sometimes but there are always opportunities in the future.  The universe, the world and people in it are interesting, regardless of how they came into being.
Let us profit by what every day and hour teaches us

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8128 on: January 18, 2016, 12:33:00 PM »
Why and how?  Do you not have a decent life and enjoy yourself?
Hundreds of millions, possibly billions, don't, so this seems a startlingly complacent, self-centred and selfish question to pose.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8129 on: January 18, 2016, 12:36:22 PM »
Hundreds of millions, possibly billions, don't, so this seems a startlingly complacent, self-centred and selfish question to pose.

Exactly!

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8130 on: January 18, 2016, 01:33:48 PM »
AB,

Whether the "just" is appropriate is moot, but there's no reason to think that there isn't such a "definable point" - whether in fact or in principle. For starters though you'd need to tell us what you mean by "perception". Do dogs have it for example? Wasps? Slime mold?

Either way though, you're committing another logical fallacy here - the appeal to consequences ("argumentum ad consequentiam"). Whether or not you happen to like the answer says nothing whatever to whether or not it is the answer.

It cannot be a "gift" unless you can demonstrate a giver. If you want to argue though "consciousness is hard, therefore god"/"god gave us consciousness, therefore consciousness" that's just circular reasoning - another logical fallacy.   

Just try to imagine the scenario:

The High Priest Bug-eyed Gringlemorph of Nephalim ordained that everyone's legs should be just long enough to reach the ground...

Each of us can "imagine" anything we like, but that's all we'd have - imaginings. Your problem here is to develop an actual argument to suggest why your imagining should be taken any more seriously than mine.
 

Ever thought of doing stand up comedy Blue, I'd pay to see your efforts, still laughing, a good post.

You have to laugh at these ideas or it could send you running around banging your head on the walls.

How do these people manage to function in the real world?

ippy

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8131 on: January 18, 2016, 01:45:58 PM »
I feel that many people on this forum are not so much searching for God, but actively hiding from Him.

History shows that the human race has been given awareness of God, but despite all the evidence for His existence, they turn away and try to believe that He does not exist.  They use their God given gifts of intelligence, perception and free thought to think up ever more complex explanations for why He can't possibly exist.

Turning away from God and trying to hide from Him is a human trait which we are all susceptible to.  There is constant media pressure and peer pressure to conform and do what most modern thinking people do and give up any belief in God because He does not exist.  The inevitable consequence of this is that we become separated from God, getting farther and farther away from Him, ultimately ending with spiritual death along with our physical bodies.

So how can we avoid this dreadful consequence? 

God wants us to turn back to Him, and we can do this by allowing Jesus to take the consequences of our failures upon Himself.  Jesus died, taking all our sins upon Himself so that we might live!

And then resurrection changed the course of human history, giving hope to all mankind.

This is the essence of Christianity.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

OH MY WORLD!

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8132 on: January 18, 2016, 01:49:05 PM »
Thanks treeless ippy, that explains much. Before you got the giggles, you ran around banging your head so much that engaging with you is like being alone. Now have a cookie!

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8133 on: January 18, 2016, 01:51:28 PM »
AB

So after all the clear and simple explanations given to you by Blue, you show that you are not really interested in seeking the truth. Anyone who does not see if as you do (with all your logical fallacies) is just hiding from your god.

This is accepting defeat on your part as you cannot rebut the clear arguments that show your errors.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Outrider

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8134 on: January 18, 2016, 01:57:44 PM »
I feel that many people on this forum are not so much searching for God, but actively hiding from Him.

I feel that many people on this forum are not facing up to reality, but instead are hiding from it in ideas like 'god' and 'heaven'.

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History shows that the human race has been given awareness of God, but despite all the evidence for His existence, they turn away and try to believe that He does not exist.

No, history shows that the human race, in the absence of sufficient understanding of reality, make up powerful agencies to explain phenomena.

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They use their God given gifts of intelligence, perception and free thought to think up ever more complex explanations for why He can't possibly exist.

What 'complex explanations' are involved in "there is no evidence of gods"?

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Turning away from God and trying to hide from Him is a human trait which we are all susceptible to.

Being afraid of reality and trying to hide in stories is a human trait we're all susceptible to.

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There is constant media pressure and peer pressure to conform and do what most modern thinking people do and give up any belief in God because He does not exist.

There is a constant media pressure and peer pressure to conform to old traditions and do what people have always done and give up critical and independent thinking to blindly follow antiquated, out-dated, primitive ideas.

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The inevitable consequence of this is that we become separated from God, getting farther and farther away from Him, ultimately ending with spiritual death along with our physical bodies.

The inevitable consequence of this is we get people bemoaning the progress we've made at the expense of the certainty for wrong answers, ending in anachronistic outbursts of 'spirit' and 'divinity' in what could otherwise be a post-Enlightenment Age of Reason.

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So how can we avoid this dreadful consequence?

How can we avoid falling back into this nonsense?

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God wants us to turn back to Him, and we can do this by allowing Jesus to take the consequences of our failures upon Himself.  Jesus died, taking all our sins upon Himself so that we might live!

Follow the evidence. Take what can be seen, what can be tested, what can be shown to be, what can be shown to work, and put the rest aside. Accept the questions, accept that it's fine not to have all the answers, and continue to look for them with whomever wants to come along for the ride.

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And then resurrection changed the course of human history, giving hope to all mankind.

And accept that we're all going to die, that we only have a limited time to make a difference, whether to us or each other, and make that difference as best you can.

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This is the essence of Christianity.

This is reality.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8135 on: January 18, 2016, 01:58:58 PM »
I feel that many people on this forum are not so much searching for God, but actively hiding from Him.

History shows that the human race has been given awareness of God, but despite all the evidence for His existence, they turn away and try to believe that He does not exist.  They use their God given gifts of intelligence, perception and free thought to think up ever more complex explanations for why He can't possibly exist.

Turning away from God and trying to hide from Him is a human trait which we are all susceptible to.  There is constant media pressure and peer pressure to conform and do what most modern thinking people do and give up any belief in God because He does not exist.  The inevitable consequence of this is that we become separated from God, getting farther and farther away from Him, ultimately ending with spiritual death along with our physical bodies.

So how can we avoid this dreadful consequence? 

God wants us to turn back to Him, and we can do this by allowing Jesus to take the consequences of our failures upon Himself.  Jesus died, taking all our sins upon Himself so that we might live!

And then resurrection changed the course of human history, giving hope to all mankind.

This is the essence of Christianity.

How do I hide from something thats not there AB.

ippy

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8136 on: January 18, 2016, 02:03:38 PM »
Thanks treeless ippy, that explains much. Before you got the giggles, you ran around banging your head so much that engaging with you is like being alone. Now have a cookie!

Cookie? Do you mean a biscuit?

ippy

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8137 on: January 18, 2016, 02:06:07 PM »
AB,

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I feel that many people on this forum are not so much searching for God, but actively hiding from Him.

History shows that the human race has been given awareness of God, but despite all the evidence for His existence, they turn away and try to believe that He does not exist.  They use their God given gifts of intelligence, perception and free thought to think up ever more complex explanations for why He can't possibly exist.

Turning away from God and trying to hide from Him is a human trait which we are all susceptible to.  There is constant media pressure and peer pressure to conform and do what most modern thinking people do and give up any belief in God because He does not exist.  The inevitable consequence of this is that we become separated from God, getting farther and farther away from Him, ultimately ending with spiritual death along with our physical bodies.

So how can we avoid this dreadful consequence? 

God wants us to turn back to Him, and we can do this by allowing Jesus to take the consequences of our failures upon Himself.  Jesus died, taking all our sins upon Himself so that we might live!

And then resurrection changed the course of human history, giving hope to all mankind.

This is the essence of Christianity.

All of which I don't doubt you think sincerely to be true, though how it's possible to "turn away" from something you have no reason to believe to be there in the first place is anyone's guess.

The point though is that you were attempting lines of reasoning for your beliefs that were manifestly wrong, as I explained to you. You've now just ignored those rebuttals, and instead retreated to a vague restatement of your general beliefs.

Which is all very nice for you, but it means you've exited the field if you want to make an argument that explains why anyone else should agree with you. Why for example would you not instead say something like, "OK, I see now where I've been relying on logical fallacies so from now on I'll abandon those and will focus instead on making an argument that's logically cogent and coherent...and here it is!"?   

 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 02:12:56 PM by bluehillside »
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God

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8138 on: January 18, 2016, 02:07:40 PM »
I feel that many people on this forum are not so much searching for God, but actively hiding from Him.

History shows that the human race has been given awareness of God, but despite all the evidence for His existence, they turn away and try to believe that He does not exist.  They use their God given gifts of intelligence, perception and free thought to think up ever more complex explanations for why He can't possibly exist.

Turning away from God and trying to hide from Him is a human trait which we are all susceptible to.  There is constant media pressure and peer pressure to conform and do what most modern thinking people do and give up any belief in God because He does not exist.  The inevitable consequence of this is that we become separated from God, getting farther and farther away from Him, ultimately ending with spiritual death along with our physical bodies.

So how can we avoid this dreadful consequence? 

God wants us to turn back to Him, and we can do this by allowing Jesus to take the consequences of our failures upon Himself.  Jesus died, taking all our sins upon Himself so that we might live!

And then resurrection changed the course of human history, giving hope to all mankind.

This is the essence of Christianity.

By a remarkable coincidence, Alan, late last night and into the early hours, on one of the Sky channels there was one of those fact-based true-life films that in the old days used to be known not so much as straight to video as straight to taped over. Be that as it may or be it not as it may not be, it was as I say based on the true story of a couple accused of sexually abusing their children, for which they were tried, convicted, sentenced and jailed. Jailed for years, of which they served over a decade if memory serves - twelve years, I think. In that period psychiatrists placed tremendous pressure on the couple to confess to their crimes (they denied it strenuously), saying that they were in denial of ever having raped and otherwise sexually abused their children. At one point it was even insinuated by one psychiatrist that if they stopped being in denial they would be able to see their children again - a supervised visit, of course. But nevertheless, the implication was clear: give up the denial and you can see the kids.

You can probably guess the rest, Al. There never was any sexual abuse. Never happened. Never took place. I won't go into specifics as that would take me too far astray from the import of this post but years later it came to light that there was no sexual abuse and that the couple had served twelve years in prison (are you aware of how child abusers are thought of and treated in prison, Al? Not just by fellow inmates, either, I might add) for absolutely nothing. Cue happy ending, tearful reunions all round, end credits.

You remind me of that psychiatrist, Alan - you are so insistent on the correctness of your beliefs (and that's all that they are) that instead of principled, rational disbelief you see denial. Since you don't scruple to psychologise the stance of your ideological opponents, I'll join you. It seems to me that you have to take this stance (that people who don't believe as you do are in denial - are "hiding" from God ::) )  because it's a defence mechanism - it's a means of avoiding the fact that people are simply not convinced by your clownish parade of flat assertion, logical fallacies and other desperately bad non-arguments. People don't "try" to believe that God doesn't exist - they actually do not. They are wholly and entirely unpersuaded by the feebleness of arguments for some supposed entity which is, amongst other things, poorly defined at very best, unevidenced and which bears every hallmark of being exactly the sort of thing that primitive and superstitious ancients concocted for various reasons easily explicable principally by both human psychology and anthropology. That is the essence not of Christianity specifically, about which I couldn't give a monkey's, but the essence of theism in general. And that's why people reject it, Alan; not because they're in denial of what you believe to be the truth, but because they can rationally appraise the feeble pseudo-arguments that you and your lot come up with and reject them as the specious, man-made, anthropocentric nonsense that they are. Psychologically interesting in many ways, I have no quibble there, but corresponding to no objective reality which can be demonstrated to be the case by any means.

People aren't in denial of the truth, Alan; they're unpersuaded by your lamentable efforts to persuade. They see no evidence for God as there's no very clear or coherent definition of the concept, and definition has to come first in these matters before you start talking about evidence; what they do see are all the bad arguments for God as advanced by yourself and all the clear, cogent, logical arguments against such a thing. Your woolly uplift is clearly very important for you and that's great. Nobody is trying to separate you from your beliefs. But they will however not forbear from pointing out how slipshod are the quasi-intellectual arguments you try to employ in support of a purely emotional attachment; you err grievously if you lose sight of the fact - it is one - that what you consider to be true is purely and entirely a matter of your own personal belief, and not knowledge or a fact. You don't place any premium at all on logic and rationality, Alan, preferring to hold it to be true that your ardent beliefs are a synonym for demonstrable fact, but many of us do.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2016, 02:25:47 PM by Shaker »
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gordon

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8139 on: January 18, 2016, 02:26:30 PM »
I feel that many people on this forum are not so much searching for God, but actively hiding from Him.

Nope: nothing to hide from.

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History shows that the human race has been given awareness of God, but despite all the evidence for His existence, they turn away and try to believe that He does not exist.

No it doesn't: it may show that people think they have an awareness of God, which isn't the same thing at all. Then there is the absence of evidence, as opposed to assertion and the gamut of fallacies you are so fond of yourself,  Alan.

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They use their God given gifts of intelligence, perception and free thought to think up ever more complex explanations for why He can't possibly exist.

More assertion, then of course there is the absence of any good reasons for thinking God exists as opposed to the fallacious bad ones on which theism is based.

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Turning away from God and trying to hide from Him is a human trait which we are all susceptible to.

Nonsense: the absence of good reasons to take the God hypothesis seriously in the first place is the issue.

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There is constant media pressure and peer pressure to conform and do what most modern thinking people do and give up any belief in God because He does not exist.

I'd say that the fallacious arguments from authority and tradition trotted out by organised Christianity are better examples of peer pressure. In addition, since there is no 'atheist central' to refer to I'd imagine that most atheists you'll encounter have thought through the various arguments for God offered by theists before rejecting them as being fallacious.

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The inevitable consequence of this is that we become separated from God, getting farther and farther away from Him, ultimately ending with spiritual death along with our physical bodies.

You can't be separated from what doesn't exist.

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So how can we avoid this dreadful consequence?

Not a problem: there is nothing to avoid.   

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God wants us to turn back to Him, and we can do this by allowing Jesus to take the consequences of our failures upon Himself.  Jesus died, taking all our sins upon Himself so that we might live!

So the story goes, Alan, but in the absence of anything substantive it is just a story.

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And then resurrection changed the course of human history, giving hope to all mankind.

More accurately claims that the resurrection occurred may have changed history, given the impact of organised Christianity, which may have given hope to some but plenty of misery to others. However, but dead people really do always stay dead Alan: no exceptions (ask your local undertaker for confirmation of this fact).

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This is the essence of Christianity.

It may well be - which isn't the same thing as it being true though!

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8140 on: January 18, 2016, 02:35:19 PM »
Dear Gordon,

Ain't this forum atheist central :P :P

Shaker is the Godfather, Sane is the Consigliere consiglierie lawyer type bloke, Bluehillside is the muscle.

And yes I am bored. :P

Gonnagle.
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Go on make a difference, have a rummage in your attic or garage.

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8141 on: January 18, 2016, 02:36:31 PM »
Dear Gordon,

Ain't this forum atheist central :P :P

Shaker is the Godfather, Sane is the Consigliere consiglierie lawyer type bloke, Bluehillside is the muscle.

And yes I am bored. :P

Gonnagle.
I'm warming to the idea - perhaps especially of bluey being the Luca Brasi of R & E  :o
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

Gonnagle

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8142 on: January 18, 2016, 02:38:50 PM »
Dear Shaker,

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I'm warming to the idea - perhaps especially of bluey being the Luca Brasi of R & E  :o

That was a LOL moment, cheers ;D

Gonnagle.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8143 on: January 18, 2016, 02:53:13 PM »
Yo Gonners,

Quote
Ain't this forum atheist central :P :P

Shaker is the Godfather, Sane is the Consigliere consiglierie lawyer type bloke, Bluehillside is the muscle.

And yes I am bored. :P

Fat Tony say you bin disrespectin' me on da street - you talkin' to me? You talkin' to me?

Nah, relax kiddo - I'm just bustin' ya balls a liddle. 

Oh, and FT says too dis emergence stuff is fascinatin' if youze give it a chance - SO DON'T BE BORED CAPICHE?
"Don't make me come down there."

God

Nearly Sane

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8144 on: January 18, 2016, 03:08:00 PM »

Spring is sprung, the grass is riz.
I wonder where de boidie is.
De boid is on the wing, but dats absoid.
How can the boid be on the wing, the wing is on de boid.

floo

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8145 on: January 18, 2016, 03:19:46 PM »
Spring is sprung, the grass is riz.
I wonder where de boidie is.
De boid is on the wing, but dats absoid.
How can the boid be on the wing, the wing is on de boid.

It's in our garden on the bird table! ;D

Alan Burns

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8146 on: January 18, 2016, 03:30:14 PM »

This is accepting defeat on your part as you cannot rebut the clear arguments that show your errors.
Far from accepting defeat, I claim victory over sin and death in the name of Jesus.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8147 on: January 18, 2016, 03:42:04 PM »
Far from accepting defeat, I claim victory over sin and death in the name of Jesus.
Victory in your war against reality to boot.
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.

BeRational

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8148 on: January 18, 2016, 03:43:39 PM »
Far from accepting defeat, I claim victory over sin and death in the name of Jesus.

Only through assertion and irrational logic.

I claim victory over the marmite monster for the same reasons.

You cannot be taken seriously, until you understand that your arguments are not sound.
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Shaker

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Re: Searching for GOD...
« Reply #8149 on: January 18, 2016, 03:47:54 PM »
Anybody else thinking of the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail at this stage?
Pain, or damage, don't end the world. Or despair, or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man, and give some back. - Al Swearengen, Deadwood.