Searching for GOD...

[Alan Burns]

No one would come out with the unsupportable nonsense you come out with

All I can say is that my posts all make perfect sense to me.  I am sorry that you can't see.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

Most families I know of will allow their children to make up their own minds when they are old enough to reason.  I do not see this as indoctrination.

But how can they make unfettered choices later in life when their religious beliefs have been imprinted before their critical faculties were in place?

What worries me is that so many young people are growing up without any real knowledge of God, so they will have nothing on which to make their minds up.  I recently came across a statistic which showed that a substantial percentage of children (I can't remember the exact figure) did not know why we celebrate Christmas.

It's not "knowledge of God" but rather "knowledge of the beliefs about god(s)". And surely modern RE that looks at the various beliefs people have about their various gods better equips them to evaluate the competing claims than would be the sole exposure to just one of them.

[Rhiannon]

  Surely he is saying he was unlucky because the family was religious which is just as much a generalization based on that as Alan B's lucky.

It depends on how his religious upbringing affected him. Even something as seemingly innocuous as going to church or praying regularly can feel very uncomfortable in hindsight, let alone going through confirmation.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Torridon,

human mind evolved from tree-dwelling African Ape mind,

Ape like mind, or have I got this evil lotion stuff wrong, again!!

Gonnagle.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

All I can say is that my posts all make perfect sense to me.  I am sorry that you can't see.

We can see that they make perfect sense to you. Your problem though if you want others not to think you're entirely mistaken is to establish arguments for them that don't rely on broken reasoning. 

[Shaker]

But how can they make unfettered choices later in life when their religious beliefs have been imprinted before their critical faculties were in place?

Essentially the same point phrased slightly differently: would anybody like to take a punt on the percentage of adults taking up religious adherence if there was absolutely no religious exposure during childhood, not until the age of, let us say, eighteen? Anyone?

[Nearly Sane]

It depends on how his religious upbringing affected him. Even something as seemingly innocuous as going to church or praying regularly can feel very uncomfortable in hindsight, let alone going through confirmation.

I don't see any such nuance in either Alan or Len's statements.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Sane,

I went into St Peter's in Rome a Catholic atheist and came out a Protestant one.

Explain yerself

Gonnagle.

[Leonard James]

Hi Len,

Well, to me it has connotations of deliberate intent. On the other hand, if the parents go to church every Sunday, say a prayer before every meal etc then the behaviour is normative for the children who see it. Is that indoctrination, or "just" imprinting?

Insisting that the children go to church every Sunday and join in the mealtime prayers smacks of indoctrination to me.  But don't let's argue over semantics. 

[Shaker]

ippy,

Catch-22:

A: "You've been indoctrinated".

B: "No I haven't."

A: "Ah, you're denial is a sure sign that you've been indoctrinated."

B: "OK, I've been indoctrinated then."

A: "Told you so."

B: "AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!"

Curiously this is a re-statement of precisely another horrendous argument that Alan tried to deploy yesterday, about atheists "hiding" from God. In his case it plays out:

Alan: But you're hiding from God really.

Atheist: No I'm not. There's nothing to hide from. I'm just unconvinced by the arguments put forward for such a thing.

Alan: But that's exactly what I'd expect an atheist in denial of the reality of God to say.

Atheist: I'm not in denial though.

Alan: But that's exactly what ... etc etc.

[Leonard James]

Essentially the same point phrased slightly differently: would anybody like to take a punt on the percentage of adults taking up religious adherence if there was absolutely no religious exposure during childhood, not until the age of, let us say, eighteen? Anyone?

Difficult to ascertain without a poll, but I would hazard a guess of a very low percentage.

[Alan Burns]

why does this worry you if, as you claim, you're quite happy for people to make up their own minds? What are you worried about?

The Christian faith is all about freely accepting Jesus as your saviour.  We have been given the freedom to choose by God Himself.

But before people can make this free choice, they need to know what the Christian message is all about.  If they rely only on media coverage and information from their peers they will get a very distorted view of the Christian faith.

[Shaker]

The Christian faith is all about freely accepting Jesus as your saviour.

How free was your choice given that by your own admission you were born into a Christian family and were raised from the first lungful of air in an atmosphere where Christianity was accepted by your parents as true? How free do you think that really was?

We have been given the freedom to choose by God Himself.

Ever heard of circular reasoning, Alan?

But before people can make this free choice, they need to know what the Christian message is all about.  If they rely only on media coverage and information from their peers they will get a very distorted view of the Christian faith.

Which one of the - what it is now? Something like 30-odd thousand denominations, isn't it? - varieties are they supposed to hear about and do you think that the human lifespan is really that long even nowadays?

[Nearly Sane]

AB,

But how can they make unfettered choices later in life when their religious beliefs have been imprinted before their critical faculties were in place?

Since Alan didn't use the word unfettered which implies no restrictions at all, not sure if it is fair to import it. (I would say it wasn't fair but given Alan's position on free will it may be).

[Gonnagle]

Dear Me,

Well, according to this debate, this little debatette, I was not indoctrinated, that's nice to know.

Gonnagle.

[bluehillside Retd.]

AB,

The Christian faith is all about freely accepting Jesus as your saviour.  We have been given the freedom to choose by God Himself.

But before people can make this free choice, they need to know what the Christian message is all about.  If they rely only on media coverage and information from their peers they will get a very distorted view of the Christian faith.

How in your opinion can primary school children "freely" accept anything?

[bluehillside Retd.]

NS,

Since Alan didn't use the word unfettered which implies no restrictions at all, not sure if it is fair to import it. (I would say it wasn't fair but given Alan's position on free will it may be).

Well, I'd have thought "unfettered" and "freely" are reasonably interchangeable for this purpose aren't they?

[Leonard James]

Most families I know of will allow their children to make up their own minds when they are old enough to reason.  I do not see this as indoctrination.

The fact is, Alan, that the majority of parents can't stop their children making up their own minds, rather than "allow" them to. The indoctrination is done unknowingly in bringing them up to a religious belief.

What worries me is that so many young people are growing up without any real knowledge of God, so they will have nothing on which to make their minds up.  I recently came across a statistic which showed that a substantial percentage of children (I can't remember the exact figure) did not know why we celebrate Christmas.

As I have mentioned many times already, every society should make sure their children are taught morality quite independently of religion.

[Gonnagle]

Dear Alan,

The Christian faith is all about freely accepting Jesus as your saviour.  We have been given the freedom to choose by God Himself.

But before people can make this free choice, they need to know what the Christian message is all about. If they rely only on media coverage and information from their peers they will get a very distorted view of the Christian faith.

I don't think the bold bit is correct, well not in my experience.

Gonnagle.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Shakes,

Curiously this is a re-statement of precisely another horrendous argument that Alan tried to deploy yesterday, about atheists "hiding" from God. In his case it plays out:

Alan: But you're hiding from God really.

Atheist: No I'm not. There's nothing to hide from. I'm just unconvinced by the arguments put forward for such a thing.

Alan: But that's exactly what I'd expect an atheist in denial of the reality of God to say.

Atheist: I'm not in denial though.

Alan: But that's exactly what ... etc etc.

Quite. Or another one:

A: "The devil has turned you away from God."

B: "But I don't believe the devil exists."

A: "That's just what the devil wants you to think."

B: "AAARRRGGGHHH!!!"

[Shaker]

Shakes,

Quite. Or another one:

A: "The devil has turned you way from God."

B: "But I don't believe the devil exists."

A: "That's just what the devil wants you to think."

B: "AAARRRGGGHHH!!!"

Yep, another Alan "'Tis But a Scratch!" Burns classic right there.

And he just doesn't see it.

[Nearly Sane]

Dear Sane,

Explain yerself

Gonnagle.

You go into St Pete's and one of the first things you see is Michelangelo's Pieta. It's beautiful, simple,  a physical paen to the love of a mother for a son. It is slightly larger than life. Further up there is a statue of the eponymous saint. It isn't a very good one but it too is slightly larger than life.

All around are other statues of Popes, these are huge, baroque, overbearing. Symbols of human power and arrogance, metal boasts of wealth and patronage. You look at them and see one of the main points of the Reformation.

[Leonard James]

Surely you have to very gullible to believe that some "spirit" is directing your thoughts?

[Nearly Sane]

NS,

Well, I'd have thought "unfettered" and "freely" are reasonably interchangeable for this purpose aren't they?

In most contexts, yes. In terms of reference here with regards will, not sure. If I don't know all possible choices, my choice would be fettered by that but still free.

[Alan Burns]

Which one of the - what it is now? Something like 30-odd thousand denominations, isn't it? - varieties are they supposed to hear about and do you think that the human lifespan is really that long even nowadays?

I would think it is the duty of parents to try to share their wisdom, accumulated over their lifetime, with their children to give them a good start in making up their own minds.